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Windows 10 on ARM

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Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#201

Post by pjmlp »

tabulatouch wrote: post #140
wand3r wrote: post #35

I am seriously impressed with Microsoft. I haven't used windows in years but they are releasing tons of useful things. VSCode is great on Ubuntu and every version of OS X I have run it on. Plus tons of other cool things like bash on win; etc. Also, I have a bizspark Azure subscription and it's not a perfect UX; but man does it beat AWS

I agree, what Microsoft shows us today is a real evolution of a software-engineering empire done (mostly) right. The sad fact is that this open-source love + tons of goodies for developers comes after decades of pain and suffering, which were not really "killing" Microsoft, but they were risking a lot. Now they're flying, leaving Apple far behind (Apple completely lacks a multi-tier engineering vision), but if they g…

Outside US, in regards to development tooling and selling applications to business, Apple never meant much.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#202

Post by pjmlp »

monocularvision wrote: post #159
derefr wrote: post #152

Odd thought: the existence of an ARM Windows, makes it much simpler for Apple to ship ARM PCs. The macOS development stack has been re-tooled to output LLVM bitcode within its "fat" binaries for a good while now. It'd be very simple for Apple to throw the switch on a compile farm ala the one Google has for Android APKs, and suddenly have ARM downloads for everything on the Mac App Store (without requiring any re-subm…

This idea keeps popping up. LLVM bitcode is way too architecture specific to allow that to happen. Chris Lattner has stated it himself.

For the LLVM bitcode as produced by the tools available at http://llvm.org/ , yes it is correct.

However you are forgetting three very important points:

1 - Apple is free to use their own fork of LLVM bitcode

2 - Apple controls what those bitcodes actually mean on their compiler stack

3 - LLVM guys already had a few talks at LLVM conferences about creating an actual platform independent form of bitcode

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#203

Post by pjmlp »

randyrand wrote: post #131
oridecon wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's way shittier to have an insecure phone. I would even install a Clippy launcher on Android if I could have the latest security and feature updates the same day that they are released (without changing phones every year or using custom ROMs).

Those are not the only 2 alternatives. For instance, iOS has neither of these problems.

Other than the price.

Any phone above 300€ is not worth my money, I am not buying a gaming desktop.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#204

Post by pjmlp »

Grazester wrote: post #79
sxates wrote: post #7

There have been rumors of a 'surface phone' that runs Win 10 (not mobile) for a couple years now. Most expected some kind of future Intel chip to enable that, but ARM support certainly opens up the possibility. Just what Windows phones need - another OS change!

Fear not Windows Phone is just about dead.

My phones still make phone calls, do SMS, have Internet access and execute the apps I care about.

Seems pretty alive to me.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#205

Post by bitmapbrother »

flukus wrote: post #189
bitmapbrother wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when you develop a cross platform IDE and emulator that requires feature parity across them all.

Feature parity does not mean the exact same tools on every platform. Trying to be identical across 3 platforms always means adopting the lowest common denominator and always results in being equally shit on every platform. It's astounding that people still try to ignore the last 30 years of evidence of this.

So Linux users should get the shaft because they're the minority? Android Studio and the emulator work very well on all 3 platforms.

>Trying to be identical across 3 platforms always means adopting the lowest common denominator and always results in being equally shit on every platform.

In that case we're fortunate that Xcode isn't cross platform.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#206

Post by United857 »

Splines wrote: post #194
satysin wrote: post #9

Microsoft are seriously killing it in emulation these days. First I was amazed with them getting Xbox 360 (PPC) games running at full speed or better on the Xbox One (x86) and now we have x86 on ARM. They have some wizards working on this stuff. Edit: I wonder if Dave Cutler is involved in this x86 on ARM stuff? I think he was with the Xbox 360/Xbox One.

Don't forget they also did Xbox (x86) --> Xbox 360 (PPC) emulation. It worked pretty decently well too.

Makes me wonder why they don't do original Xbox emulation on Xbox One -- seeing that both are X86.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#207

Post by pjmlp »

kev009 wrote: post #44

Microsoft is one of the few companies that really grok Systems Software right now.

They always did, but FOSS people always downplay the work that Microsoft Systems Research does, as if having a clone of an existing OS and UIs was some kind of innovation.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#208

Post by pjmlp »

d9 wrote: post #81

What about .Net on ARM?

.NET always supported ARM for embedded deployments, and nowadays UWP as well, so they have enough code around to update RyuJIT to also support ARM.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#209

Post by godzillabrennus »

quickben wrote: post #200
0xFFC wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They pressured google. That was the point. Google does not give a flying fuck about developer experience. I am not saying that is wrong or right. I am saying this was the case for Google for many years. They just didn't give fuck about the experience. But look at the timing. Everyone was nagging on google for years about slow emulator. They didn't do shit for years. Microsoft released an emulator, which was superior…

I think you are wrong on the Google front. Google did everything to please devs. Take apple for example, they won't think twice about refusing your app. Google OTOH, since the early days, lacked so much in the Appstore, that they let all sort of trash inside. They just wanted the devs more than quality.

Wait till you have someone file a wrongful copyright complaint against your Google Play App. Google took ours down two weeks ago and won't respond to our appeals despite clearly owning the copyright for all work done on the app.

Re: Windows 10 on ARM

#210

Post by mihular »

tinus_hn wrote: post #139
sjark wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem there if I am not mistaken is the CPU Virtualization extensions that can't handle multiple hypervisors using them at the same time.

That's true but it sure is convenient for Microsoft, and they are exploiting it as far as they can with the Credential Guard feature.

Also other virtualization hosts on the desktop don't have this problem at all. You can run all of the others at the same time.
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