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Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

theatlantic.com

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Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#201

Post by kordless »

wvenable wrote: post #165
kordless wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an irrational belief that trolls have infinite time and energy. This is, in fact, the very idea of irrationality, who's concept indicates additional work must be done to determine outcome of choice, either by individual or by group. Note that I did not disagree with your assertions here, but simply seek to restate them in slightly different terms so they may be visualized by others more effectively. Trolls may…

> It is an irrational belief that trolls have infinite time and energy. Infinite is certainly a hyperbole; but trolls typically have more time and energy to devote to destruction than you do. I have experienced it. Some trolls are mentally ill -- I have had to deal with that as well. I honestly don't know what else you're trying to say here but you did use a lot of bytes to do it.

It's what I call rational irrationality. ;)

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#203

Post by milesrout »

noobermin wrote: post #173
pdeuchler wrote: post #137

The internet is as it always was, the only difference is more people, and more importantly more people without technological prowess and forum/bbs/irc experience, are accessing it and moving increasingly larger chunks of their life to the internet. As someone who fell in love with the internet when I was young because nobody knew I was young , it constantly surprises me when people put intimate details online and the…

The majority of people who say "don't feed the trolls" have never been the focus of a trolling campaign, I've found. It is easy to claim this when you aren't under constant violent harassment and scrutiny. It is not fair to expect everyone else to have a "battle-hardened" stoicism when you've probably never experienced such a life. I've never experienced such harassment myself and used to sing the "ignore" mantra too…

1. 'Trolling' is not harassment. You can harass someone by trolling them incessantly, but harassing people is not 'trolling' them. Don't use them as synonyms.

2. They've never been the focus of a harassment campaign because they're not stupid enough to put their personal details out there on the internet and then be surprised that people will use that to harass them. They also don't feed the trolls in the first place.

>I've never experienced such harassment myself and used to sing the "ignore" mantra too, until I tried to imagine myself in the shoes of those who receive frequent harassment, and I'm not sure I would be able to ignore at the same level they are expected to.

99.9% of people that complain about being harassed would be well-served by just not using Twitter. Twitter sucks, and has always sucked. It's the epitome of short attention spans and soundbites. Don't use Twitter.

>Also, I'm not sure you are arguing whether a cause of the issue is identity being coupled to your internet presence, but I'm not sure we can go back to the internet of the early 2000's or late 90's, so we need to deal with the world as it exists now instead of thinking appeal to tradition will solve issues we have today.

Nobody is saying we have to go back to the internet of the late 90s. We just need to understand that there aren't more trolls now than there were then. There are more people in general, and when you are anonymous, they don't have anything to harass you with.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#204

Post by Baeocystin »

noobermin wrote: post #173
pdeuchler wrote: post #137

The internet is as it always was, the only difference is more people, and more importantly more people without technological prowess and forum/bbs/irc experience, are accessing it and moving increasingly larger chunks of their life to the internet. As someone who fell in love with the internet when I was young because nobody knew I was young , it constantly surprises me when people put intimate details online and the…

The majority of people who say "don't feed the trolls" have never been the focus of a trolling campaign, I've found. It is easy to claim this when you aren't under constant violent harassment and scrutiny. It is not fair to expect everyone else to have a "battle-hardened" stoicism when you've probably never experienced such a life. I've never experienced such harassment myself and used to sing the "ignore" mantra too…

Trolls are a completely different thing than criminal harassment, and it is disingenuous to equate the two.

The primary danger is that by lumping people with legitimate criminal complaints in with people who are sad because someone said some mean words to them on the internet, you don't make others more concerned about rudeness, you make them less concerned when someone has a real problem.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#205

Post by DictumExNihilo »

st3v3r wrote: post #186
DictumExNihilo wrote: post #115

What if most of them aren't "trolls" at all, but rather people who have something to say that is important to them and they choose a method to say it that upsets some people? The base assumption is that many of them are old-school variety: they seek disruption for its own sake. Suppose for a moment that this base assumption should not be taken as axiomatic. What else might motivate such a person? Some of you are quic…

"What if most of them aren't "trolls" at all, but rather people who have something to say that is important to them and they choose a method to say it that upsets some people?" If the only way you can express your dislike of a black actress is to compare her to an ape, maybe just shut the fuck up. "It is entirely too easy to dismiss a person if all you think they want is to make you mad with what they've said." And i…

>If the only way you can express your dislike of a black actress is to compare her to an ape, maybe just shut the fuck up.

??? You got me, yes, this is exactly what I do. There's a secret Nazi hiding in every bush and behind every corner ready to pounce and I'm part of the great Internet conspiracy of secret Nazis.

>And it's entirely too easy to ignore the problem of real trolling and harassment if you think it's just people with "differing opinions".

Harassment is totally the same thing. And if a hundred people show up to make fun of the dumb thing you said, it was an organized conspiracy to hurt your feelings and not myopia about potentially millions of people who normally see stuff and don't interact with it until it's too dumb to ignore.

If you've got people sending you death threats or violating TOS of sites, obviously report them. If they say rude things that have absolutely no value at all, ignore them. But if they're actually trying to pick an argument with you in good faith, they may not be a "troll" after all. There's FAR too much where people have slid into thinking that anyone who has a different opinion and expresses it in an unpleasant way is out to "troll" or "harass" them.

I mean, look, you just attacked me, a complete stranger, who has never done any of the things you brought up because I dare suggest that some belief you hold is wrong. How's that for proving a point?

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#206

Post by bhntr3 »

ocschwar wrote: post #189
noobermin wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of people who say "don't feed the trolls" have never been the focus of a trolling campaign, I've found. It is easy to claim this when you aren't under constant violent harassment and scrutiny. It is not fair to expect everyone else to have a "battle-hardened" stoicism when you've probably never experienced such a life. I've never experienced such harassment myself and used to sing the "ignore" mantra too…

"Don't feed the trolls" was a useful thing to say back when the word meant something far more specific than just "someone behaving badly on the Internet."

Yeah, the meaning has shifted. It used to be that if people knew you were trolling, you weren't a good troll.

Now a troll is just an asshole on the internet.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#207

Post by leereeves »

Para2016 wrote: post #128

You're helping prove his point. I would consider you a troll. You are aggressive, insulting, inflammatory, and you do it with regularity. I'm not sure why it has to be funny to you or anyone else.

Once upon a time, "troll" meant someone trying to provoke a reaction for fun, from a type of fishing called "trolling", which involves dragging baited hooks through the water.

Lately, as in this article, the term seems to be expanding into a general purpose insult for anyone whose posts annoy someone, sometimes only because they express a different opinion.

Under the old definition, bad faith was a requirement. Having an honest argument or even being an honest jerk wasn't the same as being a troll. That seems to be changing.

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#208

Post by anant90 »

steauengeglase wrote: post #198

Really it all boils down to a lack of community. Yeah I know, it sounds like something the dad from Leave it to Beaver would say. My favorite example goes back to the days of Quake(World). It was a surprisingly bright and sunny place. You'd pop on to a few community run servers to say "hi". Maybe play a few rounds of whatever mod you were into. When bad actors showed up, they were punted. If they came back they were…

Hey steauengeglase!

>> A likely "better" internet isn't a world of several thousand descending on a single comment thread.

I cannot agree with you more! We have been thinking about this problem for a while, and recently started https://www.commonlounge.com/ because we genuinely believe a community-based approach is the right way to win the battle against trolls.

Most people don't realize how much care a community moderator needs to put in a community to keep it a healthy place, and building tools to make their job easier usually takes a back seat at most "community platforms".

Re: Trolls are winning the internet, technologists say

#209

Post by ryandrake »

problems wrote: post #170
sp332 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We made Nigerian scams illegal. We defend against them partly by prosecuting them. We work hard to reduce the frequency and the impact of them. But you're not saying that we should do any of that for trolls. I don't accept that trolling is just something that necessarily happens and that we need to accept. We can hold trolls accountable and work to reduce trolling overall.

> We made Nigerian scams illegal. We defend against them partly by prosecuting them. We work hard to reduce the frequency and the impact of them. And guess what? They still happen. We already have the laws to attack the kind of "troll" that shows up at your door in many cases - but guess what? It still happens. Ultimately the law only gets you so far. So we must defend against them in more effective ways - like indiv…

I tell my kid not to run in the street for a reason. On the Internet, you can run in the street all day, and if someone hits you, it's not your fault because "victim blaming is wrong".
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