I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it • Hacker News Board

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#201

Post by ThePhysicist » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:07 PM UTC

ben_jones wrote: post #181

ThePhysicist wrote: post #80

Surprised that no one mentioned the new EU data protection directive, which goes a long way to fix the first issue mentioned in the article, the loss of control over our personal data (only for users in Europe though). I studied it in detail as I work in data analysis and consult companies on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best laws produced by the EU so far: It gives users a multitude of rights such as…

People often joke about the EU being toothless don't they? What penalties exist, as presumably their is a grace period to this that gives companies the time to build the systems in order to respect it? I feel like most small companies will find a way to skirt (or ignore) this as such systems could likely match the complexity of their products themselves..

Fines are only one pillar of the strategy, as the new regulation also makes it significantly easier for individuals to sue companies due to data misuse and loss in a civil court.

But you're right, in the end it will depend on how severely the individual EU countries as well as the commission persecute companies that don't obey the standards. And like in other areas there will be fraud and companies trying to circumvent the regulation. All in all I think the standard for data protection will increase significantly.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#202

Post by menacingly » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:13 PM UTC

chippy wrote: post #169

The current narrative of misinformation as a news item is a new thing, which arrived in our world during the recent US election process. The issue gets my suspicion-radar bleeping. The whole narrative smells funny to me. It's not really a global issue, it's a current affairs issue and one particular to a specific geography. And its not really an internet issue I think but a human one. What I find interesting is that…

It seems a little disappointing because I have this fantasy that the goals and problems of the web are above the little hype tempests that happen to have dominated the news cycle for a few months. I'd like the face of the web to have a steadier vision, but I'm not sure how realistic that is

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#203

Post by ThePhysicist » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:14 PM UTC

Kiro wrote: post #177

ThePhysicist wrote: post #80

Surprised that no one mentioned the new EU data protection directive, which goes a long way to fix the first issue mentioned in the article, the loss of control over our personal data (only for users in Europe though). I studied it in detail as I work in data analysis and consult companies on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best laws produced by the EU so far: It gives users a multitude of rights such as…

> You also have the right to demand the deletion of your personal data How does it work with data you're legally required to keep? E.g. for tax reasons.

Excellent question! Article 17 of the regulation (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:320...) lists some exceptions when the processor (the entity holding your data, e.g. Facebook) is allowed to keep some of your personal data. Most notably, sentence 3b states that data might be kept "for compliance with a legal obligation...", which includes keeping of tax records. Also, as the other poster already said the regulation does not apply in the same way to public institutions like the tax office.

However, the processor would not be able to keep any data beyond what is needed for the purpose for which the exception holds, and the data cannot be used for anything else.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#204

Post by miketery » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

deevolution wrote: post #184

ThePhysicist wrote: post #80

Surprised that no one mentioned the new EU data protection directive, which goes a long way to fix the first issue mentioned in the article, the loss of control over our personal data (only for users in Europe though). I studied it in detail as I work in data analysis and consult companies on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best laws produced by the EU so far: It gives users a multitude of rights such as…

This might be naive, but.. Shouldnt the internet be as far removed from regulation as possible? This just opens the doors for more regulation by central authorities.

We need to have a balance - definitely a fine line.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#205

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:18 PM UTC

galvin wrote: post #200

ben_jones wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often joke about the EU being toothless don't they? What penalties exist, as presumably their is a grace period to this that gives companies the time to build the systems in order to respect it? I feel like most small companies will find a way to skirt (or ignore) this as such systems could likely match the complexity of their products themselves..

Small businesses don't need to build complex systems to respect the law. If someone wants their data they can ask for it by email. The business can then manually gather the data from their databases and send it as a ZIP, PDF or whatever. You can worry about building a system when it makes financial sense compared to the time spent manually dealing with data requests.

[deleted]

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#206

Post by ThePhysicist » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:18 PM UTC

galvin wrote: post #200

ben_jones wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often joke about the EU being toothless don't they? What penalties exist, as presumably their is a grace period to this that gives companies the time to build the systems in order to respect it? I feel like most small companies will find a way to skirt (or ignore) this as such systems could likely match the complexity of their products themselves..

Small businesses don't need to build complex systems to respect the law. If someone wants their data they can ask for it by email. The business can then manually gather the data from their databases and send it as a ZIP, PDF or whatever. You can worry about building a system when it makes financial sense compared to the time spent manually dealing with data requests.

ZIP/PDF would not qualify as an exchange format, as the directive clearly states the data must be "in a structured, commonly used and machine-readable format". XML would do, but a PDF definitely not as it's not machine-readable (in the sense that you can easily extract the structure of the raw data from the file).

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#207

Post by curiousgeorgio » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

It's refreshing to read Berners-Lee's proposed solutions as they point toward more technical and market-based approaches rather than the typical "we need more legislation to fix these issues" incantation.

I often hear many of the same people fighting "against government overreach in surveillance laws" (as Berners-Lee mentions) while at the same time advocating more legislation to govern information use/misuse on the web. I don't think it's realistic to expect government overreach to magically work where we want it and stop right where we don't.

Many of these problems aren't on the forefront of most people's minds (yet), but as the issues become more publicized and people begin to understand their importance, then we (as in "the people", not the government) will have a greater voice - and more importantly, power through informed choices - to make a difference.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#208

Post by ThePhysicist » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #125

ThePhysicist wrote: post #80

Surprised that no one mentioned the new EU data protection directive, which goes a long way to fix the first issue mentioned in the article, the loss of control over our personal data (only for users in Europe though). I studied it in detail as I work in data analysis and consult companies on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best laws produced by the EU so far: It gives users a multitude of rights such as…

You also have the right to demand the deletion of your personal data and to revoke the right of a company to process it, as well as to demand correction of inaccurate data. This is probably the biggest change. Previously, at least in Europe, the emphasis has typically been on allowing people to know what data was being collected and to require correction of inaccuracies, but much less on whether it was actually allow…

Yes it surely creates some work for companies, but on the other hand what good would it be if you could just keep personal data around just because it happens to be on a backup tape? Companies simply have to implement suitable backup schedules, which will ensure that the data gets deleted within an acceptable time period (e.g. two weeks), which is doable without actively erasing any specific data (instead of simply erasing a whole backup version).

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#209

Post by ThePhysicist » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

Silhouette wrote: post #125

ThePhysicist wrote: post #80

Surprised that no one mentioned the new EU data protection directive, which goes a long way to fix the first issue mentioned in the article, the loss of control over our personal data (only for users in Europe though). I studied it in detail as I work in data analysis and consult companies on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best laws produced by the EU so far: It gives users a multitude of rights such as…

You also have the right to demand the deletion of your personal data and to revoke the right of a company to process it, as well as to demand correction of inaccurate data. This is probably the biggest change. Previously, at least in Europe, the emphasis has typically been on allowing people to know what data was being collected and to require correction of inaccuracies, but much less on whether it was actually allow…

Yes it surely creates some work for companies, but on the other hand what good would it be if you could just keep personal data around just because it happens to be on a backup tape? Companies simply have to implement suitable backup schedules, which will ensure that the data gets deleted within an acceptable time period (e.g. two weeks), which is doable without actively erasing any specific data (instead of simply erasing a whole backup version).

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#210

Post by laumars » Sun, Mar 12, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

traviscj wrote: post #188

laumars wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still have adverts on style free sites: Then there's paid for promotional content, which is one of the current trends on the web at the moment anyway. As long as information can be rendered then adverts can be included.

Trivial to defraud.

So are the current ad models. That's why ad networks have heuristics to detect click patterns and time spent on the advertisers page. The former is easy to replicate since it's all done server side anyway. The latter would require a less information dense page with a "read more" link to approximate what's currently done in JS et all. Not a perfect solution by any means, but it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if the standard and banners were replaced with more tailored solutions like affiliate links (eg blogs about building tools would link to online stores. Blogs about software could link to online bookstores selling books on that software).

At the end of the day if someone wants to promote a product and someone else wants to make money promoting products then there will be an advertisement model that will spring up