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Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

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Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#21
post #18

You are forgetting that it is your lungs that must move the 2.88KG in an 8 hour period. The machine just has to maintain a positive pressure during certain portions of the breathing cycle. What I see here is a possibly overly-ambitious design, but no obvious scam. BTW, here is a video of Airing's Chairman: https://vimeo.com/130685879

This is a much harder problem than you give it credit for. The pressure has to be maintained over widely and rapidly changing conditions. For instance, if the patient suddenly takes a deep, fast breath, the pressure needs to be maintained.

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#22
post #13

"People breath about 5 liters of air per minute at a low activity level. That’s 2400 liters in an-8 hour period. Air weighs about 1.2 gm/l = 2.88 KG moved in an an 8 hour period." I'm not sure if this device is plausible, but I know this calculation is not useful. You're calculating the mass of air moved, which, first of all, does not itself say much about the energy required to do so; for instance, horizontal motion…

Well it has been a few years from when I took my Thermo course, and yes the proper way to do this is to compute the work required for compression. I'd invite this thread to do a proper job with the math. And if you've used a CPAP as I have you know that it actually assists your chest in moving, which is even a more considerable mass--there's a lot of energy being used in my CPAP device.

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#23
post #18

You are forgetting that it is your lungs that must move the 2.88KG in an 8 hour period. The machine just has to maintain a positive pressure during certain portions of the breathing cycle. What I see here is a possibly overly-ambitious design, but no obvious scam. BTW, here is a video of Airing's Chairman: https://vimeo.com/130685879

..and if you've used a CPAP you know that it actually assists you quite a bit--it partially moves your chest for you, which is a quite substantial mass.

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#24
post #8

Maybe the doctors are being scammed as well? Gilmartin specializes in sleep medicine http://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Geoffrey_Gilmartin/profile

I can't speak to Dr. Gilmartin himself, but being a doctor doesn't make you an engineer capable of evaluating a complex medical device. My pulmonogolist is a good doctor and understands how to best configure my own CPAP for my health. He really has little idea how the thing actually works.

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#25
post #9

The fact that their anticipated price is $3/day is absurd. I can't see insurance companies rushing to cover this.

"The costs of untreated sleep apnea reach further than just health issues. It is estimated that in the U.S. the average untreated sleep apnea patient's annual health care costs $1,336 more than an individual without sleep apnea. This may cause $3.4 billion/year in additional medical costs. Whether medical cost savings occur with treatment of sleep apnea remains to be determined."[1]

So if it turns out that this treatment of sleep apnea can offset those increased healthcare costs, I could definitely see insurance companies being interested.

[1] Kapur V, Blough DK, Sandblom RE, Hert R, de Maine JB, Sullivan SD, Psaty BM (September 1999). "The medical cost of undiagnosed sleep apnea". Sleep 22 (6): 749–55. PMID 10505820

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#26

   > what should we do as engineers?
Well you can warn people off, but you can't make people disbelieve what they want to believe. In similar situations I've suggested that folks wait until they can be ordered and the crowd funded units have shipped. Then they will have a good idea of what they are getting. If the crowd funding fails or they are poor quality, they will have saved themselves aggravation and money, if it works then they will be available as a product.

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#27

I don't know enough about this particular hardware to know. I know when I was tested for sleep apnea, the CPAP machine they suggested for me was set on a very low flow rate. A number of factors contribute to the airway obstruction in sleep apnea. One is muscle tone in the airway: too flimsy of muscle will collapse more easily. One is body fat: too much and it squeezes everything closer. One is airflow itself: if the…

Couldn't agree with your reply more.

Re the flappy fan, I know I've read sometime in the past couple of years about a design that was trying to replace rotary fans, and it was piezoelectric in nature. I found a few but none that looked like they would develop any appreciable pressure. I think stacked piezeoelectrics could be built up in such away that you could create a material pressure differential, but not in something the size of a tootsie roll, and not anything that could move enough volume to let people breath.

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#28
post #14
post #12

I'm no engineer and my knowledge of CPAP extends to the amount of Googling I did since I saw this post. Their constraints do seem very tight but I can conceive at least one way in that you could shrink the device down. There would be multiple actions in such a device: 1. During the inhale increase pressure. As noted by the image[1] this is achieved in the device with "blowers." 2. During the exhale present a restrict…

I don't follow your logic at all. And you do not escape the fact that the device has got to move almost 3 kg of mass with about 1 watt.

> I don't follow your logic at all.

I have another try at communicating the idea.

It sounds like the main problem with sleep apnea is that the air passages are collapsed when it comes time to start inhaling - preventing the process from occurring. Therefore the core of the solution is having "inflated" air passages at the point when inhalation starts.

The idea is to kick-start the next inhalation with the current exhalation. When you exhale you increase the pressure in your air passages which is work ("wattage") that completely goes to waste - it all goes out your nose/mouth. The device would gradually restrict the passage of air out of the nose (as the exhalation process completes), eventually cutting it off completely. This means that once you have completely exhaled your air passages would still be "inflated." This is what (2) and (3) do. In this situation conventional CPAP would be providing pressure (even though it's not needed) and would hence be wasting work.

That is the special sauce: relying on the human to do work that they don't have problems with. This will reduce the amount of work you need to do to assist with their medical condition: possibly down to 1 watt, or at least way less than you'd need with conventional CPAP.

> 1 watt

The problem is collapsed airways and not dysfunctional lungs, there's still plenty of wattage there: all you need to do is keep the air passages open using (1).

As I said: a long-shot, remotely plausible. Most importantly: if the above is a plausible idea there is no guarantee that it's the same as theirs or that they even have one. Show me the patents.

At the same time it's better to ask questions before initiating a witch-hunt. I think the first plan of action would be for them to prove that they have a working device instead of the seemingly common "warning off people" suggestion. A better suggestion to people is encourage them to ask for proof.

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#29
post #14
post #12

I'm no engineer and my knowledge of CPAP extends to the amount of Googling I did since I saw this post. Their constraints do seem very tight but I can conceive at least one way in that you could shrink the device down. There would be multiple actions in such a device: 1. During the inhale increase pressure. As noted by the image[1] this is achieved in the device with "blowers." 2. During the exhale present a restrict…

I don't follow your logic at all. And you do not escape the fact that the device has got to move almost 3 kg of mass with about 1 watt.

[deleted]

Re: Implausible and overfunded CPAP machine on Indiegogo

#30
There is breathing going on here so is there any chance that the breathing out could help recharge the battery in a similar way that a hybrid car charges your battery when you brake?

I also don't think it is 'disposable'. I think it is recyclable and from what I've seen the $3 is dependent on recycling them.

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