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Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

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Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#21

Post by untog »

afandian wrote: post #17
argentpyro wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ben Noordhuis reverted a commit that had removed gendered language from libuv documentation: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40e Joyent received a lot of flak because people believe that Ben was a Joyent employee (he actually worked for Strongloop). Joyent came out with a post separating themselves from Ben, saying that they were in support of gender neutral language: https://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-…

I think that's quite one sided. He rejected the commit because the author didn't sign the contributors agreement. He was following the rules. His crime was the tone of voice. I don't think it's worth forcing someone off a project for that.

I don't believe that was the reason he used in the discussion thread. His reply was:

"Sorry, not interested in trivial changes like that."

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#22

Post by astrodust »

throwaway90446 wrote: post #16
argentpyro wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ben Noordhuis reverted a commit that had removed gendered language from libuv documentation: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40e Joyent received a lot of flak because people believe that Ben was a Joyent employee (he actually worked for Strongloop). Joyent came out with a post separating themselves from Ben, saying that they were in support of gender neutral language: https://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-…

Which is all well and good, but the author of that blog post, the one who stated he would not hesitate to fire Ben if he were an employee, has no problem mocking bisexuals in public presentations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGkVM1B5NuI#t=3059 To date, Bryan Cantrill remains CTO of Joyent. The corporate position appears to be that blatant homophobia by employees is acceptable, but improper pronouns are terminable…

That does seem like an inappropriate joke, bad taste no doubt, but a firing offense? Only if this was representative of a pattern.

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#23

Post by hacknat »

georgeb_ wrote: post #5
afandian wrote: post #2

The behaviour of Joyent towards Ben Nordhuis left a very bad taste in my mouth last year. So I checked on the contributions to libuv [1] and it looks like he's back on the project. I wonder what happened? [1] https://github.com/libuv/libuv/commits?author=bnoordhuis

Something seems to be happening at Joyent a lot of good people have left recently; Brendan Gregg, Deirdré Straughan, Ben Rockwood, Mark Cavage and so on. I love the work Joyent put out and have great admiration for them but something is off.

Mark left? How did you find that out? This must have been super recent.

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#24

Post by makomk »

throwaway90446 wrote: post #16
argentpyro wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ben Noordhuis reverted a commit that had removed gendered language from libuv documentation: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40e Joyent received a lot of flak because people believe that Ben was a Joyent employee (he actually worked for Strongloop). Joyent came out with a post separating themselves from Ben, saying that they were in support of gender neutral language: https://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-…

Which is all well and good, but the author of that blog post, the one who stated he would not hesitate to fire Ben if he were an employee, has no problem mocking bisexuals in public presentations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGkVM1B5NuI#t=3059 To date, Bryan Cantrill remains CTO of Joyent. The corporate position appears to be that blatant homophobia by employees is acceptable, but improper pronouns are terminable…

I'm not sure I'd call that "mocking" bisexuals, it's closer to mocking the shitty way other people treat them.

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#25

Post by shawndrost »

untog wrote: post #21
afandian wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's quite one sided. He rejected the commit because the author didn't sign the contributors agreement. He was following the rules. His crime was the tone of voice. I don't think it's worth forcing someone off a project for that.

I don't believe that was the reason he used in the discussion thread. His reply was: "Sorry, not interested in trivial changes like that."

He went into more depth later: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568...

Among other things that might change your impression of Ben: 1) The work that the PR required from him was much more than clicking the merge button. 2) He's a non-native speaker of English and at the time he reverted the commit, he was under the impression that the difference was academic. 3) In his spare time, he teaches young people (especially women) to code.

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#26

Post by netstag »

throwaway90446 wrote: post #16
argentpyro wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ben Noordhuis reverted a commit that had removed gendered language from libuv documentation: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40e Joyent received a lot of flak because people believe that Ben was a Joyent employee (he actually worked for Strongloop). Joyent came out with a post separating themselves from Ben, saying that they were in support of gender neutral language: https://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-…

Which is all well and good, but the author of that blog post, the one who stated he would not hesitate to fire Ben if he were an employee, has no problem mocking bisexuals in public presentations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGkVM1B5NuI#t=3059 To date, Bryan Cantrill remains CTO of Joyent. The corporate position appears to be that blatant homophobia by employees is acceptable, but improper pronouns are terminable…

Never heard of him or Joyent till now, but I tried watching that video, skipping along and had a hard time not finding him being offensive. He even goes on to make light of nazis and mock a past co-workers "galactic butt", so then I just skipped even faster.

What's sad is that he seems to be talking about introducing 'drag' within the company and yet I doubt he realizes the irony given 90% of his talking content is just that.

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#27

Post by afandian »

untog wrote: post #21
afandian wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's quite one sided. He rejected the commit because the author didn't sign the contributors agreement. He was following the rules. His crime was the tone of voice. I don't think it's worth forcing someone off a project for that.

I don't believe that was the reason he used in the discussion thread. His reply was: "Sorry, not interested in trivial changes like that."

That's precisely what I mean by tone of voice.

Egalitarianism (and all kinds of society-improving imperatives) are important, but if someone submits a change that is objectively a small number of bytes (regardless of the social ramifications) and doesn't follow the procedures, then they are causing him a problem.

He could certainly have phrased it better (which I characterised as 'tone of voice'), but as you get your daily work done you can't always be aware of the huge weight of people with a cause ready to descend when you slip up. People need the latitude to have an off-day. Who knows what else was on his mind.

I know Joyent wasn't his employer, but if I slipped up as part of my work and got a tirade of abuse as he did, I would hope my employer would support me not stab me in the back.

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#28

Post by philh »

astrodust wrote: post #22
throwaway90446 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is all well and good, but the author of that blog post, the one who stated he would not hesitate to fire Ben if he were an employee, has no problem mocking bisexuals in public presentations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGkVM1B5NuI#t=3059 To date, Bryan Cantrill remains CTO of Joyent. The corporate position appears to be that blatant homophobia by employees is acceptable, but improper pronouns are terminable…

That does seem like an inappropriate joke, bad taste no doubt, but a firing offense? Only if this was representative of a pattern.

throwaway wasn't suggesting that Bryan should be fired for that.

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#29

Post by [deleted] »

afandian wrote: post #20
Dewie wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that's quite one sided. IMO argentpyro explained the incident in a pretty neutral manner.

Actually reading that particular conversation about the commit (there were several) does demonstrate the reasons for reverting the commit. (And the amazing speed at which things escalated)

[deleted]

Re: Moving the joyent/libuv repository to libuv/libuv

#30

Post by philh »

argentpyro wrote: post #13
olalonde wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The behaviour of Joyent towards Ben Nordhuis left a very bad taste in my mouth last year. What happened?

Ben Noordhuis reverted a commit that had removed gendered language from libuv documentation: https://github.com/joyent/libuv/commit/804d40e Joyent received a lot of flak because people believe that Ben was a Joyent employee (he actually worked for Strongloop). Joyent came out with a post separating themselves from Ben, saying that they were in support of gender neutral language: https://www.joyent.com/blog/the-power-…

The thing that annoys me most about this post is that

> to reject a pull request that eliminates a gendered pronoun on the principle that pronouns should in fact be gendered

is not what Ben was doing, and nothing Ben said on the subject could have given that impression. "Empathy is a core engineering value", and when you ascribe untrue motivations to people, you are completely failing at it.

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