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I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

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Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#21

Post by martius »

baby wrote: post #6

Are french developers really better than US ones though? We have EPITA, EPITECH, and the recent 42. But besides that I feel like the CS formation of our universities is very poor... I know a lot of people who've done/are doing CS in university, and their level is pretty low I would say. But maybe I tend to overestimate the US coders' level...

For what it's worth, I studied CS in Lyon, in a good engineers school. While courses were clearly not the best, I met a lot of very clever fellows, some of them were hired at mozilla or Google. Some others joined start ups or started their own.

I think that we've got a lot of talents in France, but they are sometimes underestimated or simply ignored. They are basically too often off the grid. But really, they are here, in France.

(hint: have a look at mozilla employees here in Paris)

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#22

Post by rb2k_ »

FD3SA wrote: post #12

Always interested in the factors being optimized when making these decisions. I would think that for people engaging in an inherently risky endeavor such as entrepreneurship, the most important goal would be to hedge against failure. France, and the EU in general, have some of the best social safety nets in the developed world. What exactly does moving to the USA accomplish in 2014? The EU has no shortage of educated…

I moved to Boston from Germany.

I haven't experienced the "lack of consistent healthcare, lack of social safety net and much lower quality of life". Those probably all exist, but they have no real influence on my everyday life.

Some of the things that I enjoy over here:

- Everything is exciting and I'm learning a lot. Just the act of getting bank accounts, how to buy gas, ... Everything is new. That'll probably wear off.

- Everything is convenient. Companies seem to care more about my general being happy than they do in Germany. All of the promotions are a bit annoying, but at the same time, processes seem a bit more streamlined.

- Things happen sooner over here. Stripe, the iPhone, Netflix/Hulu, Amazon Prime, ... All of them show up in the US first. At some point they might show up in other countries. This keeps being the epicenter for technology innovation.

- I can buy groceries on a Saturday (or on Sunday at 2 am for that matter)

- There is a lot more self reliance. I'm not forced to pay into a state retirement fund, I can handle that stuff myself.

- There are a LOT of smart people bunched up in a relatively small area. Wherever you go, there is usually somebody with something interesting to say.

The social climate is probably worse, apartments on the east-coast (especially Boston) are more expensive and usually not in a good shape, I can't find a proper bathtub, I can't drink a beer in public, lots of other parts of the country are inhabited by people with incompatible views on life and the political system is horrible.

All in all, I am not living in "the US", I'm living in a nice little bubble in a very affluent part of the east-coast and I very much enjoy it. I could have probably also moved to Berlin, but for somebody that is more into Science/Engineering, this place seems pretty nice.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#23

Post by cylinder »

FD3SA wrote: post #12

Always interested in the factors being optimized when making these decisions. I would think that for people engaging in an inherently risky endeavor such as entrepreneurship, the most important goal would be to hedge against failure. France, and the EU in general, have some of the best social safety nets in the developed world. What exactly does moving to the USA accomplish in 2014? The EU has no shortage of educated…

Entrepreneurs aren't moving here because of taxes. They are moving here to access a huge market and to join an ecosystem that fosters entrepreneurship (with money and other forms of support). A law-abiding professional and entrepreneur isn't going to spend a moment thinking about incarceration rates, drug laws, and "militarized police."

Big things can happen in the US in a short amount of time, which is the dream young entrepreneurs are chasing. If things don't work out they can always head back to their safety net. So, spending your risk-taking years here makes perfect sense.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#24

Post by nraynaud »

FD3SA wrote: post #12

Always interested in the factors being optimized when making these decisions. I would think that for people engaging in an inherently risky endeavor such as entrepreneurship, the most important goal would be to hedge against failure. France, and the EU in general, have some of the best social safety nets in the developed world. What exactly does moving to the USA accomplish in 2014? The EU has no shortage of educated…

For France at least, the retirement and unemployment safety nets don't apply to CEOs. But they get health insurance which is already a lot (and way cheaper than a private one).

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#25

Post by S4M »

baby wrote: post #6

Are french developers really better than US ones though? We have EPITA, EPITECH, and the recent 42. But besides that I feel like the CS formation of our universities is very poor... I know a lot of people who've done/are doing CS in university, and their level is pretty low I would say. But maybe I tend to overestimate the US coders' level...

I remember when I was in 'prepa', I was interested in going to a pure programming 'grande ecole', but unfortunately, only ENSIMAG and IIE would qualify (the ones you mentioned have expensive admission fees - by French standards). There are lots of 'grandes ecoles' offering programming, but mixed with Electronics and/or Mechanical Engineering. At the end I went to another 'grande ecole' that was doing maths and statistics, with a few programming courses.

Also in France we don't have programming classes in high school (at least not when I was there in the nineties), which I think is/was a waste.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#26

Post by genofon »

bvrlt wrote: post #17
DangerousPie wrote: post #10

Is it actually true that "a developer in France will basically cost you half the price of a US one"? I have always been under the impression that labor was a lot more expensive in Europe (and particularly France) because of high taxes and a large amount of social/welfare contributions. This is not to say that there aren't good reasons for having these contributions or that workers in one place or the other are necess…

There are several things to take in account. Base salary for fresh out of school engineer is about 40 kEUR. You need to add 75% of social contributions, so that totals around 70 kEUR. If you are a "young innovative company" though, you can have exoneration of these social contributions and only pay ~40 kEUR for the first few years.

- Base salary for fresh out of school engineer is about 40 kEUR

Are you talking about France?

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#27

Post by mjn »

FD3SA wrote: post #12

Always interested in the factors being optimized when making these decisions. I would think that for people engaging in an inherently risky endeavor such as entrepreneurship, the most important goal would be to hedge against failure. France, and the EU in general, have some of the best social safety nets in the developed world. What exactly does moving to the USA accomplish in 2014? The EU has no shortage of educated…

> the potential tax savings of incorporating in the US

Whether there are tax savings at all also depends on your specific situation. If you're an employee, income taxes are almost certainly lower in the U.S. than most of the rich countries in Europe. But if you're starting a company or working for yourself, it depends a lot more on which U.S. states and/or European countries you're considering, and what kind of business you're planning to do (sector, number of employees, etc.).

Two places Europe can sometimes end up cheaper:

1. If you're a one-person sole proprietor. American income taxes are relatively high here, and the need to cover your own health insurance, disability insurance, etc. adds some extra expense and paperwork. Here are some numbers I estimated a few months ago for Silicon Valley vs. Copenhagen tax rates: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6192339

2. If corporate income taxes are relevant to your business. There are ways to minimize their impact (especially if you're willing to pay for good tax consultants), but the headline rates are generally higher in the U.S. than in Europe, though rates vary widely in Europe so it depends on where you're considering in particular. Ireland generally has the lowest rates; in the U.S., NYC has particularly high rates (and some complex rules for registering businesses).

3. If you want to do your taxes yourself. American business taxation is nearly impossible to figure out correctly without professional assistance, and there are myriads of pitfalls and penalties.

One that varies a lot is "flexibility". My impression is that the French labor market is rather inflexible, and in general the American one is the most flexible. However on specific issues the American one is somewhat inflexible. There is a particularly big difference between "full-time" and "part-time" employment in the U.S., because the employer is expected to provide "benefits" (at least health insurance, often many other things) to full-time employees. In some of Europe the employer doesn't need to worry about these kinds of things at all (which also cuts down on the amount of HR you need to do). In Denmark it's relatively common, at least in tech startups, for people to work part-time schedules, e.g. 2 or 3 days a week.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#28

Post by yulaow »

bvrlt wrote: post #17
DangerousPie wrote: post #10

Is it actually true that "a developer in France will basically cost you half the price of a US one"? I have always been under the impression that labor was a lot more expensive in Europe (and particularly France) because of high taxes and a large amount of social/welfare contributions. This is not to say that there aren't good reasons for having these contributions or that workers in one place or the other are necess…

There are several things to take in account. Base salary for fresh out of school engineer is about 40 kEUR. You need to add 75% of social contributions, so that totals around 70 kEUR. If you are a "young innovative company" though, you can have exoneration of these social contributions and only pay ~40 kEUR for the first few years.

Woah, 40kEUR for a fresh out of school engineer is a lot considering my zone (IT, GE, FR). Maybe in a corporation or something like that, but in startups and similars it's already a good start to have 20kEUR out of school (taxes included)

If you have a stage/intership contract it can be also less then 12-15kEUR (taxes included)

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#29

Post by tormeh »

rb2k_ wrote: post #22
FD3SA wrote: post #12

Always interested in the factors being optimized when making these decisions. I would think that for people engaging in an inherently risky endeavor such as entrepreneurship, the most important goal would be to hedge against failure. France, and the EU in general, have some of the best social safety nets in the developed world. What exactly does moving to the USA accomplish in 2014? The EU has no shortage of educated…

I moved to Boston from Germany. I haven't experienced the "lack of consistent healthcare, lack of social safety net and much lower quality of life". Those probably all exist, but they have no real influence on my everyday life. Some of the things that I enjoy over here: - Everything is exciting and I'm learning a lot. Just the act of getting bank accounts, how to buy gas, ... Everything is new. That'll probably wear…

This. Europe, because of lingual and cultural differences, lack the sort of high-density clusters you get in the US. There's no Cambridge, MA or bay area because moving around is such a big deal here. Berlin is the closest we have, but it's not nearly enough. Basically, Europe is too spread out. Americans always talk about the US' low population density, but the population density of NY and LA is incredibly high. It's in the cities that most creative endeavors get done. The flyover states and the countryside is only of interest to cartographers and the people who live there.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#30

Post by icebraining »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #16
DangerousPie wrote: post #10

Is it actually true that "a developer in France will basically cost you half the price of a US one"? I have always been under the impression that labor was a lot more expensive in Europe (and particularly France) because of high taxes and a large amount of social/welfare contributions. This is not to say that there aren't good reasons for having these contributions or that workers in one place or the other are necess…

"labor was a lot more expensive in Europe" I'm not a Euroresident but I'll guess that while minimum wage (or whatever you can haggle) employees are indeed more expensive in Europe, software developers might be less accustomized to six figure salaries that Valley is known for. Therefore, you get them for less base money, plus tax breaks. Plus life might be cheaper in Europe than in the Valley while still maintaining b…

Well, Europe's a big place. The average may be higher, but the minimum wage in some countries is lower - for example here in Portugal, it's equivalent to $4.16/hour.
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