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I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

denoyel.com

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Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#11

Post by jordanb »

baby wrote: post #6

Are french developers really better than US ones though? We have EPITA, EPITECH, and the recent 42. But besides that I feel like the CS formation of our universities is very poor... I know a lot of people who've done/are doing CS in university, and their level is pretty low I would say. But maybe I tend to overestimate the US coders' level...

I took his point to mean that there's a different supply/demand ratio for good developers in France because the denominator is smaller.

This is probably especially true versus NYC or SF.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#12

Post by FD3SA »

Always interested in the factors being optimized when making these decisions. I would think that for people engaging in an inherently risky endeavor such as entrepreneurship, the most important goal would be to hedge against failure.

France, and the EU in general, have some of the best social safety nets in the developed world. What exactly does moving to the USA accomplish in 2014? The EU has no shortage of educated engineers or professionals. Is the potential tax savings of incorporating in the US worth the visa and immigration hurdles, lack of consistent healthcare, lack of social safety net and much lower quality of life (vicious judicial systems, abnormal incarceration rates, high crime rates, militarized police, draconian drug laws, etc.)?

It is always better to assess a situation rationally, rather than impulsively pack everything in a suitcase after reading a Paul Graham essay. Unlike most of his readers, PG is a Harvard grad and a US citizen.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#13

Post by bvrlt »

baby wrote: post #6

Are french developers really better than US ones though? We have EPITA, EPITECH, and the recent 42. But besides that I feel like the CS formation of our universities is very poor... I know a lot of people who've done/are doing CS in university, and their level is pretty low I would say. But maybe I tend to overestimate the US coders' level...

I learned most of my CS skills out of school. School gave me more a framework to think (I studied in both France and US).

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#15

Post by yawz »

It's really hard (if possible) to make such comparison. I studied and worked in France. Now I live in the US. In some respect it's not fair to compare "US" to "France" as a country. US has many technology poles and most of the time feels like a group of countries sharing the same language and currency.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#16

Post by guard-of-terra »

DangerousPie wrote: post #10

Is it actually true that "a developer in France will basically cost you half the price of a US one"? I have always been under the impression that labor was a lot more expensive in Europe (and particularly France) because of high taxes and a large amount of social/welfare contributions. This is not to say that there aren't good reasons for having these contributions or that workers in one place or the other are necess…

"labor was a lot more expensive in Europe"

I'm not a Euroresident but I'll guess that while minimum wage (or whatever you can haggle) employees are indeed more expensive in Europe, software developers might be less accustomized to six figure salaries that Valley is known for. Therefore, you get them for less base money, plus tax breaks. Plus life might be cheaper in Europe than in the Valley while still maintaining better quality.

This in total gives EU GINI americans die for (some even literally).

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#17

Post by bvrlt »

DangerousPie wrote: post #10

Is it actually true that "a developer in France will basically cost you half the price of a US one"? I have always been under the impression that labor was a lot more expensive in Europe (and particularly France) because of high taxes and a large amount of social/welfare contributions. This is not to say that there aren't good reasons for having these contributions or that workers in one place or the other are necess…

There are several things to take in account.

Base salary for fresh out of school engineer is about 40 kEUR. You need to add 75% of social contributions, so that totals around 70 kEUR.

If you are a "young innovative company" though, you can have exoneration of these social contributions and only pay ~40 kEUR for the first few years.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#18

Post by MadJawa »

baby wrote: post #6

Are french developers really better than US ones though? We have EPITA, EPITECH, and the recent 42. But besides that I feel like the CS formation of our universities is very poor... I know a lot of people who've done/are doing CS in university, and their level is pretty low I would say. But maybe I tend to overestimate the US coders' level...

Really depends on the universities. EPITA, EPITECH, SupInfo and the likes are way overestimated and overpriced compared to some good universities.

Re: I didn't leave France, I moved to the US

#20

Post by Sambdala »

DangerousPie wrote: post #10

Is it actually true that "a developer in France will basically cost you half the price of a US one"? I have always been under the impression that labor was a lot more expensive in Europe (and particularly France) because of high taxes and a large amount of social/welfare contributions. This is not to say that there aren't good reasons for having these contributions or that workers in one place or the other are necess…

I'm currently working in Europe as a US citizen, and my impression is that, yes, labor is going to be cheaper if you're hiring native workers in Europe for white collar jobs.

However, there is a ton of friction in the hiring and firing process (from an anecdotal point of view), and it intuitively seems like the kind of friction that is more easily handled by a larger company rather than a startup.

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