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I don't want to be a Real Programmer

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Re: I don't want to be a Real Programmer

#21

Post by jowiar »

JimmyM wrote: post #11
ses wrote: post #5

Its interesting to hear from someone who's more of a hobbyist programmer. You don't meet so many, mainly I think because once you become half-decent at programming you have access to a range of well paid jobs. Of course as you say, those jobs come with certain conditions that aren't for everybody. I've often thought of quitting professional programming and it to become a hobby instead. I think sometimes great things…

I'm a hobbyist programmer, but I'm able to use my programming in my work - even though it's not strictly related. Programming skills can be a nice extra to a creative or administrative skillset, especially in smaller & boutique companies.

The job title gets thrown around as "data scientist" sort of evolved out of a mix of "Professional Programmer/Amateur Statistician" and "Professional Statistician/Amateur Programmer" types.

Anyway, for me, programming has always been something I do, not something I am... I think this might lead to the exclusionary nature of our field a bit - I know I've looked around and seeing people who identify as programmers, not really doing the same, and wondering if I belong...

Re: I don't want to be a Real Programmer

#22

Post by JimmyM »

jowiar wrote: post #21
JimmyM wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a hobbyist programmer, but I'm able to use my programming in my work - even though it's not strictly related. Programming skills can be a nice extra to a creative or administrative skillset, especially in smaller & boutique companies.

The job title gets thrown around as "data scientist" sort of evolved out of a mix of "Professional Programmer/Amateur Statistician" and "Professional Statistician/Amateur Programmer" types. Anyway, for me, programming has always been something I do, not something I am... I think this might lead to the exclusionary nature of our field a bit - I know I've looked around and seeing people who identify as programmers, not…

> programming has always been something I do, not something I am

I think this is important, it's the kind of thing that I read and think "Yes, how obvious, of course!" but in practice I wouldn't think of it myself. A very healthy way of seeing things.

Re: I don't want to be a Real Programmer

#23

Post by adamors »

gearoidoc wrote: post #19
adamors wrote: post #16

Nonsense like this > For sure, they are plenty of Real Programmers out there, who easily agree to the 80+ hours/week workload. has to stop. I think the opposite is true: if someone is working 80 hour weeks they either overcompensate for their lack of skill or are being willfully exploited.

Agreed. If there's one danger to our industry, its notions like this. (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it; but most can't. I always try to look at statements like this through the eyes of a would-be programmer. If I was about to start down the programming route and was told I could never achieve my a…

> (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it

I don't think they're superhuman, they are people who have no lives and will burn out in a short period of time. I can only feel sorry for them.

Re: I don't want to be a Real Programmer

#24

Post by [deleted] »

chriswarbo wrote: post #18

It can be quite humbling to realise how large a particular field is, but it in no way makes one an 'imposter'. Pro tip: Those 'Real Programmers' who's JS experiments make your CSS look quaint aren't the world's best programmers . They're 'yet another frontend guy' to, for example, those who write Java servers. Guess what, those writing the Java servers are 'just end-users' as far as the JVM hackers are concerned. Lik…

[deleted]

Re: I don't want to be a Real Programmer

#25

Post by ownagefool »

einhverfr wrote: post #6

In my experience there are two kinds of programmers. Those who program (largely based upon practices they are told are good) and those who also really think about their own programming and try to develop their own paradigms in response to their own problems. The latter tend to be, in the long run, far more productive than the former. However, this takes both motivation and it takes extra time between iterations to th…

Learning 30+ years of CS knowledge from scratch doesn't sound very efficient. The truth is, anyone who constantly delivers must have the capacity to understand _why_ but they'll still be largely benefiting from the trails marked by others.

Re: I don't want to be a Real Programmer

#27

Post by amirmc »

adamors wrote: post #23
gearoidoc wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. If there's one danger to our industry, its notions like this. (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it; but most can't. I always try to look at statements like this through the eyes of a would-be programmer. If I was about to start down the programming route and was told I could never achieve my a…

> (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it I don't think they're superhuman, they are people who have no lives and will burn out in a short period of time. I can only feel sorry for them.

This thread seems to assume that there's a clear distinction between 'work' and 'not-work'. That isn't always the case as it's entirely possible that someone can love what they do to the extent that the lines completely blur (yes, that means those people could be exploited for that passion).

An example of this is academia where every prof I've met 'works' insane hours but are completely (and happily) absorbed in their fields. The whole thing feels like a hobby to them. The only thing they'd want to get rid of is the paperwork (research assessments, etc) so they could spend that time with students and research.

Re: I don't want to be a Real Programmer

#28

Post by gearoidoc »

adamors wrote: post #23
gearoidoc wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. If there's one danger to our industry, its notions like this. (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it; but most can't. I always try to look at statements like this through the eyes of a would-be programmer. If I was about to start down the programming route and was told I could never achieve my a…

> (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it I don't think they're superhuman, they are people who have no lives and will burn out in a short period of time. I can only feel sorry for them.

I'd be inclined to agree with you but I know less than a handful of people who work crazy hours and maintain a great social life, and have done so for many years.

Whether they suffer some epic burnout in years to come remains to be seen but I hope not for their sake.

Re: I don't want to be a Real Programmer

#30

Post by tluyben2 »

amirmc wrote: post #27
adamors wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (Most) humans aren't supposed to work 80+ a week. I say most because there are always those superhumans you come across that just seem to be able to do it I don't think they're superhuman, they are people who have no lives and will burn out in a short period of time. I can only feel sorry for them.

This thread seems to assume that there's a clear distinction between 'work' and 'not-work'. That isn't always the case as it's entirely possible that someone can love what they do to the extent that the lines completely blur (yes, that means those people could be exploited for that passion). An example of this is academia where every prof I've met 'works' insane hours but are completely (and happily) absorbed in thei…

Yep; there is no off switch for me for over 20 years already. I have a clear goal in life which happens to involve a LOT of programming and I work over 80 hours/week for all that time but I don't really see or feel it as work. The fact I make plenty money with it does not make it feel like work. And my family and social life is thriving (I seem to be one of the few people I know who makes new really good (I met 3 of my best friends while I was well over 30) friends all the time while being almost 40). I'm just 24/7 thinking/working on this goal and it involves 12-13 hours of coding/coding related work every day. So what? It's just a hobby which happens to be something people pay well for. I hope I never reach my goal; i'm happy always as I have this goal, it's like a religion I guess, it gets me up in the morning, gives me energy when I need it etc.

If you do stuff you don't really like or it's 'just' a job then I wouldn't even work 40 hours for it, but I really don't see what's wrong with 'always on' if this happens to be your life.

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