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When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

blog.pmarca.com

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Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#21

Post by chc »

boomzilla wrote: post #18
jcampbell1 wrote: post #10

For those that don't know what is going on, here is the backstory: Carl Icahn has recently bought a bunch of ebay stock. He has claimed the company is mismanaged. He has also personally attacked Marc Andreesen. Here is the accusation from Ichan: 1) Marc Andreesen was/is on ebay's board. 2) While on ebay's board, Marc bought most of Skype from eBay. 3) He flipped Skype to Microsoft in less than 2 years, earning himsel…

I think Marc Andreessen position is weak in this fight. I have absolutely no empathy for Carl Icahn, but on this issue, he's got a good point. It seems Marc Andreessen had a conflict of interest and instead of showing that wasn't the case, Andreessen decided to attack Icahn for stuff that aren't related to this issue, even if they were definitely questionable.

What, Icahn can fling random accusations but Andreessen can't? It's all just mud-slinging.

As for Andreessen's motive, I suppose he probably thinks Icahn is making a power play and is more interested in fending off Icahn than in defending himself in this particular instance. Icahn clearly wants Andreessen on the defensive, so it kind of makes sense, though it all feels a bit embarrassing.

Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#22

Post by adventured »

hnnewguy wrote: post #19
adventured wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how his financial company employs 60,000 people? Or did you mean he has ownership stakes in industrial firms that employ 60,000 people? Because he most certainly has never created 60,000 jobs by starting a company.

> Can you explain how his financial company employs 60,000 people? Do you think that large, multi-billion dollar financial conglomerates run themselves? > Or did you mean he has ownership stakes in industrial firms that employ 60,000 people? Both. Through wholly-owned subsidiaries and the financial holding company. What does it matter? My point is, painting him like he's some inexperienced financier is utterly dising…

Well I wasn't looking to engage in a battle of baseless statements. I asked if you can elaborate on the 60,000 employees you said his financial company employs.

Medium-size (Icahn is no Goldman or BlackRock), multi-billion dollar hedge funds and private equity groups (and similar) do not have 60,000 employees. Take a quick look reference at how many people Buffett has employed in his offices over the years. The industrial firms he owns stakes in employ lots of people, he didn't start those companies of course, and he doesn't run them.

BlackRock has 11,000 employees with a couple hundred billion in assets. Goldman Sachs has 32,000 employees with $911 billion in assets under management. To name two examples.

I'm willing to bet Icahn's financial company is extremely small in fact and employs very few people relative to the value of its holdings.

What does it matter? Because I'm fascinated by where those 60,000 people are employed.

Who's hating on bankers? Not me. Who said he isn't extremely savvy? Not me. I asked where you got the 60,000 figure, simple.

Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#23

Post by hnnewguy »

adventured wrote: post #22
hnnewguy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain how his financial company employs 60,000 people? Do you think that large, multi-billion dollar financial conglomerates run themselves? > Or did you mean he has ownership stakes in industrial firms that employ 60,000 people? Both. Through wholly-owned subsidiaries and the financial holding company. What does it matter? My point is, painting him like he's some inexperienced financier is utterly dising…

Well I wasn't looking to engage in a battle of baseless statements. I asked if you can elaborate on the 60,000 employees you said his financial company employs. Medium-size (Icahn is no Goldman or BlackRock), multi-billion dollar hedge funds and private equity groups (and similar) do not have 60,000 employees. Take a quick look reference at how many people Buffett has employed in his offices over the years. The indus…

>Not me. I asked where you got the 60,000 figure, simple.

Their 10k lists each subsidiary and the number employed:

http://www.ielp.com/sec.cfm?SortOrder=Type%20Ascending&DocTy...

2/3 are employed by Federal Mogul, an automotive parts supplier controlled by IE.

Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#24

Post by supercanuck »

arbuge wrote: post #2

Financiers like Icahn are motivated by short term profits above all else. Building a company takes people with a long term vision. The two are often not compatible. Having a leech trying to bleed out every cent as soon as it's made is not generally a good thing unless your company throws off wads of unneeded cash like nobody's business.

I don't know about that, I bet there is a certain level of pride and being right that motivates him too.

Profit is a measurable of how "right" Carl Icahn is.

Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#25

Post by x0x0 »

boomzilla wrote: post #18
jcampbell1 wrote: post #10

For those that don't know what is going on, here is the backstory: Carl Icahn has recently bought a bunch of ebay stock. He has claimed the company is mismanaged. He has also personally attacked Marc Andreesen. Here is the accusation from Ichan: 1) Marc Andreesen was/is on ebay's board. 2) While on ebay's board, Marc bought most of Skype from eBay. 3) He flipped Skype to Microsoft in less than 2 years, earning himsel…

I think Marc Andreessen position is weak in this fight. I have absolutely no empathy for Carl Icahn, but on this issue, he's got a good point. It seems Marc Andreessen had a conflict of interest and instead of showing that wasn't the case, Andreessen decided to attack Icahn for stuff that aren't related to this issue, even if they were definitely questionable.

from marc's blog:

   * Throughout the eBay board’s process of divesting Skype, I fully disclosed 
   my potential interest and recused myself from all deliberations on the 
   transaction, including all discussions, negotiations, and decisions. I was 
   uninvolved in eBay’s decision to spin off Skype and in eBay’s decision to 
   choose to partner with the Silver Lake syndicate.
   
   * eBay’s retained ownership in the Skype spinoff was 30% vs. Andreessen 
   Horowitz’s approximately 3%. That much larger ownership gave eBay a far 
   bigger role in decision making on Skype after the spinoff than Andreessen 
   Horowitz, as well as a far bigger economic payoff on the sale to Microsoft.
   
   http://blog.pmarca.com/2014/03/03/my-statement-on-ebay-director-role-and-governance/
Ebay retained 30%, so we're really arguing over 70% of the gain that didn't go to ebay. And some of it was always going to go back to the founders because Meg Whitman is a fucking moron -- she not only bought a company without buying the backing tech, but then proceeded to fuck over the founders, screwing them on over $1B, who retained ownership over the backing tech. No cause for bad blood there! Leadership!

Anyway, it does seem a little sketchy, but on the other hand, marc seems to have acted well within established business practices.

Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#26

Post by boomzilla »

chc wrote: post #21
boomzilla wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Marc Andreessen position is weak in this fight. I have absolutely no empathy for Carl Icahn, but on this issue, he's got a good point. It seems Marc Andreessen had a conflict of interest and instead of showing that wasn't the case, Andreessen decided to attack Icahn for stuff that aren't related to this issue, even if they were definitely questionable.

What, Icahn can fling random accusations but Andreessen can't? It's all just mud-slinging. As for Andreessen's motive, I suppose he probably thinks Icahn is making a power play and is more interested in fending off Icahn than in defending himself in this particular instance. Icahn clearly wants Andreessen on the defensive, so it kind of makes sense, though it all feels a bit embarrassing.

I understand this is all mud-slinging and I think most of us agree that Icahn probably got more mud in his past (though I am sure someone will disagree).

The question for Andreessen is that did he think (and could prove) that he's a more ethical businessman than Icahn (note I am not saying a better person here) Apparently not, at least in the Skype sale.

Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#28

Post by johnny635 »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #10

For those that don't know what is going on, here is the backstory: Carl Icahn has recently bought a bunch of ebay stock. He has claimed the company is mismanaged. He has also personally attacked Marc Andreesen. Here is the accusation from Ichan: 1) Marc Andreesen was/is on ebay's board. 2) While on ebay's board, Marc bought most of Skype from eBay. 3) He flipped Skype to Microsoft in less than 2 years, earning himsel…

Marc Andreesen should be in jail over that Skype flip.

Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#29

Post by x0x0 »

hnnewguy wrote: post #9
arbuge wrote: post #2

Financiers like Icahn are motivated by short term profits above all else. Building a company takes people with a long term vision. The two are often not compatible. Having a leech trying to bleed out every cent as soon as it's made is not generally a good thing unless your company throws off wads of unneeded cash like nobody's business.

> Financiers like Icahn are motivated by short term profits above all else. That's one way to look at it. Another is to note that Icahn built a thriving financial company that has survived for over 4 decades, and employs over 60,000 people globally. I'd say that requires long term thinking and demonstrates a bit of business acumen.

that's the only way to look at it; Icahn is a thieving sack of shit. Look at TWA: Icahn got fucking paid no matter whether TWA succeeded or failed. I can maybe see how these leeches ought to get 1/2 billion dollar payouts if they come in and rescue a company, but 0.5B when they ruin a company?

Heads I win, tails you lose.

Re: When Carl Icahn Ran a Company: The Story of TWA

#30

Post by argumentum »

In my view, after his humiliation by Apple's board, Carl Icahn feels his power (and by proxy the power of wall street) slowly and surely being stripped away by tech. This is at the root of his obsession with pmarca, who famously claimed that "software is eating the world."

The world that's being eaten is the world of Icahn and wall street financiers like him. The tech industry has its own source of finance (namely angels, vcs, y-combinator etc .. people like pmarca). Icahn's recent attention seeking is a symptom of the despair he feels at no longer being needed.

Good riddance, in my opinion.

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