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N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

nytimes.com

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Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#21

Post by wil421 »

bananacurve wrote: post #16
sentenza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has really dropped the ball here. We, here in Germany, have a mainstream political party whose leaders are blindly americophile. The last and current government are dominated by that party. From the beginning of the crisis, these people loudly blamed the victim, accusing NSA-critics of anti-americanism and telling us that "the NSA discussion is over". Then, with time, the industrial espionage stories started t…

> German companies had their trade secrets stolen by American intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to US competitors Do you have a source for that? As far as I can tell Germany wants tighter intelligence integration with the US and howls at the slightest mention of even reducing the size of US military bases on German soil.

>German companies had their trade secrets stolen by American intelligence agencies, which in turn gave those secrets to US competitors.

I have yet to see anything like this in the news. Thats crazy to think the NSA is helping companies with trade secrets.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#22

Post by PavlovsCat »

adventured wrote: post #13
mhurron wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one seemed to care when the French did it.

I agree that industrial spying by national agencies is rather common across the globe. The only difference here is the perception and magnifying glass / media spotlight.

Magnitude isn't a meaningful difference?

Sounds like saying "everybody has an army. there is no difference" in response to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e...

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#23

Post by Zigurd »

wil421 wrote: post #20
sentenza wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has really dropped the ball here. We, here in Germany, have a mainstream political party whose leaders are blindly americophile. The last and current government are dominated by that party. From the beginning of the crisis, these people loudly blamed the victim, accusing NSA-critics of anti-americanism and telling us that "the NSA discussion is over". Then, with time, the industrial espionage stories started t…

Could you provide some information where the NSA conducted Industrial Espionage? Merkel is a politician so I could see why she was targeted. As far as I know China is the only one being blamed for Industrial Espionage. NSA is snooping on citizens and interest groups. Note: I am no way in favor of any snooping on any countries citizens foreign or domestic.

Snowden revealed NSA hacked into Petrobras ahead of an important oilfield auction.

The only use for that information would be setting bids. It's no small thing. Bids with insider information could cost Brasil tens of billions of dollars.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#24

Post by Zigurd »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #22
adventured wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that industrial spying by national agencies is rather common across the globe. The only difference here is the perception and magnifying glass / media spotlight.

Magnitude isn't a meaningful difference? Sounds like saying "everybody has an army. there is no difference" in response to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e...

It's a good bet that intelligence/surveillance spending is roughly proportional to military spending.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#25

Post by wil421 »

Zigurd wrote: post #23
wil421 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you provide some information where the NSA conducted Industrial Espionage? Merkel is a politician so I could see why she was targeted. As far as I know China is the only one being blamed for Industrial Espionage. NSA is snooping on citizens and interest groups. Note: I am no way in favor of any snooping on any countries citizens foreign or domestic.

Snowden revealed NSA hacked into Petrobras ahead of an important oilfield auction. The only use for that information would be setting bids. It's no small thing. Bids with insider information could cost Brasil tens of billions of dollars.

That could be a side effect of tapping into a network hub or something. Does Petrobas have any ties to organized crime?

I dont see where it says they passed that info to American companies.

Please dont think I am downplaying this I am just trying to understand why.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/09/nsa-spying-braz...

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#26

Post by abalashov »

Zigurd wrote: post #14

There are some curious things about the response to these revelations: 1. Zero "friendly" nations have gone beyond carping. If the NSA still thinks they can put the toothpaste back in the tube it's because nobody who matters has told them otherwise, much less acted on such a declaration. 2. Even more surprising is that zero small nations who are far down the "Eyes" hierarchy, have concluded they can't win, so they sh…

Given the inherently interconnected and international character of the Internet, as well as the fact that many of its key network peering and exchange points are in countries fairly high on the "Eyes" hierarchy, I would be deeply sceptical of the viability of any effort to become "the Switzerland of data".

So, you build a data centre in a "Switzerland of data" and throw something like national government-level resources into its physical security, and buttress it with legislation highly supportive of nondisclosure and customer privacy. So what? To get any utility out of such a place, outside users need to send traffic to and from it. Unlike, say, copyright enforcement takedowns or what have you, the NSA's surveillance isn't highly reliant on physical proximity to that kind of facility, or nearby listening posts. Much of the Sigint took place at vulnerable transoceanic Internet traffic convergence points in countries like the UK and Germany.

How would a Switzerland of Data stop that? :-)

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#27

Post by AndrewKemendo »

fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible, while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise through espionage is not.

I am genuinely curious why the former would be defensible while the latter not. The former in this case would trend toward causing (at some point) some level of death an destruction, the latter amounts to high level piracy.

Is the basis for the former's defensibility the assumption that it is strictly defensive in nature?

Why would a country not have a program to enhance it's own industry through espionage?

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#28

Post by flexie »

fidotron wrote: post #7

The best bit here is right in the first paragraph: "and a European Union official involved in antitrust battles with American technology businesses." Spying on foreign governments because you think they might present a threat to you in terms of war/foreign policy is generally defensible (although many on here would disagree with that), while using the apparatus of the state to support select private enterprise throug…

In the last 20 years several American tech companies have grown huge with very little challenge from European antitrust or tax authorities.

Google, Facebook, LinkedIn, Apple, Amazon, Intel, Microsoft...

Rules regarding abuse of dominant position could have been applied much stricter. Some of these companies have 90-something percent market share on several of the geographic and product markets they operate in. But not one of them has been forced to split up. MS was forced not to include IE in Windows and MS and Intel were fined (fined!), but not one of them have been forced to open access to (or just make it possible to export) their social graph. Apple is still allowed to block other content providers from selling movies and music iPhone and iPad. The iphone costs more or less the same all over Europe as does the music and movies on it. Amazon has been allowed to apply predatory pricing for more than a decade.

Tax laws could have been designed so that companies were taxed on their European profits, just like the European companies they compete against.

These companies barely employ Europeans, barely pay any European tax, but they hold thousands of European patents and make hundreds of billions of euro in Europe and operate in markets where there is curiously enough still not/no longer serious competition from European companies.

I don't believe for a second that NSA hasn't used their spying to improve American competitiveness.

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#29

Post by PavlovsCat »

Zigurd wrote: post #24
PavlovsCat wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Magnitude isn't a meaningful difference? Sounds like saying "everybody has an army. there is no difference" in response to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e...

It's a good bet that intelligence/surveillance spending is roughly proportional to military spending.

Also, the combination with having a military mestastazing like mad all over the world is what makes the spying kinda extra creepy. I guess there were times when France was declaring itself as the beacon of freedom and democracy while waging war on the poor and non-aligned (internationally, that is), but that was before I was born.

That the spying itself is out of control, too, doesn't help. Then there is the amount of international communications that go through the US, versus the amount that goes through France.

There's not even a comparison -- a far cry from "the only difference is media spotlight". (reminds me of Bush voters talking about liberal media btw... if that offends anyone, good, because it takes real energy or natural talent to dismiss differences of orders of magnitude that easily)

Re: N.S.A. Dragnet Included Allies, Aid Groups and Business Elite

#30

Post by mladenkovacevic »

Zigurd wrote: post #23
wil421 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you provide some information where the NSA conducted Industrial Espionage? Merkel is a politician so I could see why she was targeted. As far as I know China is the only one being blamed for Industrial Espionage. NSA is snooping on citizens and interest groups. Note: I am no way in favor of any snooping on any countries citizens foreign or domestic.

Snowden revealed NSA hacked into Petrobras ahead of an important oilfield auction. The only use for that information would be setting bids. It's no small thing. Bids with insider information could cost Brasil tens of billions of dollars.

Canadian spy agency was also found to be spying on the Brazil mining ministry. Canadian mining companies would clearly have an advantage in bidding for mining rights in that country if they knew what the mining ministry was up to.
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