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David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

theguardian.com

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Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#21

Post by thaumasiotes »

majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

> The question - and only question - should be what David Simon asks: are we all in this together or are we not?

I can't agree. This is just another way to tell the world at large "you're either with us or you're against us". Posing the question is a good way to convince me that I'm against you.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#22

Post by mooreds »

spindritf wrote: post #15
majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing Is this idea actually being implemented anywhere? Isn't education, even in the US, almost wholly sponsored by the government? People talk about student loans bu…

Well, there's a rising number of for profit schools and colleges. These are different in that they still get government funding but are run by private companies (as opposed to private schools, which are funded by tuition).

http://chronicle.com/article/Annual-Portrait-of-Education/12...

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#23

Post by bluedino »

bsirkia wrote: post #8

The hardest thing for me is that I'm super aware of how fucked up things are, but not totally sure what can done so just say "this sucks" and go back to work and whining about healthcare and listening to Slate podcasts. If I learned anything from the Wire, it's that these problems Simon brings up are so institutionalized that there's almost no way to fix them without some massive change, but I'm too small and irrelev…

The thing people that write these articles don't acknowledge was how fucked up things were in the USA, even in the 'great' times. The 50's and 60's were a booming time for the economy and middle class. But black people still had their lines to wait in, had to sit in the back of the bus, and we had 'colored' drinking fountains.

Things have came a long, long way since then. Things might not be perfect and there are bits of racism but we are so far ahead of where we were.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#24

Post by pzuraq »

patrickmay wrote: post #10
gum_ina_package wrote: post #4

When I see arguments like this one, I always remember the little known fact that Adam Smith was a moral philosopher before he wrote about economics. A fundamental principle for capitalism is that people will behave morally and be compassionate. Without a moral society, no matter what system you're talking about, that society will always collapse. I think David Simon, and many other modern critics of capitalism, have…

As well as Smith, I am reminded of Bastiat: “Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state…

If government were not as influential as you claim, there is absolutely no reason the wealthy would use the resources they buy power with to provide goods and services, especially to the poor and needy who cannot afford them as is. In fact, you completely ignore the robber barons and a time when less regulation DID exist, and society was even less free and equal.

There is NO such thing as a truly free market. Free markets are an ideal simplification, like calculations done in a frictionless vacuum. The role of government in the economy is to regulate in such a way that a sort of free market is created. That competition exists and everyone benefits.

Unfortunately that power is not always used correctly. Regulation is difficult, oftentimes it doesn't work as expected. But that does not mean the problem is regulation itself. The problem is specifically the regulations that exist today. That makes sense, when you realize that half the government is trying to prove that the government is terrible. I really wouldn't trust them with regulating anything.

The greatest time in recent American history was created by socialistic, big government programs and regulations. Period. The massive amounts of wealth generated during that time went to every American, not just the few, because of those policies. Removing government is not the answer, we need to fix it.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#25

Post by chongli »

gum_ina_package wrote: post #7
andyl wrote: post #5

Capitalism as we know it is unsustainable.

How so? If anything, we've seen how people can corrupt and ruin any system/society. When many people say "capitalism has failed us" they really mean our politicians have failed us by allowing corporations to run the government. That's not a failure of capitalism, that's our failure because we've let our elected representatives do this to us.

Because it's based on the idea of exponential growth. Exponential growth is not sustainable without exponential growing access to resources.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#26

Post by tlarkworthy »

jotm wrote: post #3
danso wrote: post #2

It's hard to talk about David Simon without immediately thinking of The Wire, and I'm glad he mentioned it (he's infamously annoyed that people see it as compelling drama more than its attack against institutions, including the capitalist system): > So I'm astonished that at this late date I'm standing here and saying we might want to go back for this guy Marx that we were laughing at, if not for his prescriptions, t…

Maybe it's time to start thinking global, move to other countries where we're needed. That would be one solution (though not for many)...

That was tried with Northern Ireland and Israel. Didn't go well. The settling of the America's and Australia went really well ... for the non-indigenous people. I don't think moving people around the world to solve problems is a good idea.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#27

Post by jpttsn »

majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

> The question - and only question - should be what David Simon asks: are we all in this together or are we not?

I don't understand: Do you mean that to be a rhetorical question, or do you actually want to debate whether we're "all in this together?"

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#28

Post by avar »

majika wrote: post #6

This is a remarkably sensible speech. The idea that the market will solve such things as environmental concerns, as our racial divides, as our class distinctions, our problems with educating and incorporating one generation of workers into the economy after the other when that economy is changing; the idea that the market is going to heed all of the human concerns and still maximise profit is juvenile. It's a juvenil…

The libertarian and anti-government sentiments aren't saying that we shouldn't be all in this together, but that we shouldn't be forced to be all in this together. That difference is what the entire argument is about.

Few people are saying saying "let's not do this" for some value of "this", they're saying "let's not force everyone to do this".

That's a very profound difference, it's why having the government make anything its business anywhere in the world is always controversial.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#29

Post by pzuraq »

eudox wrote: post #17
johnchristopher wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem in the US isn't capitalism, it's that the government interferes extensively in the economy. Well... maybe the problem is that the economy interferes extensively in the government. > Building a society is the responsibility of each individual who values it. Using government force in pursuit of that goal leads only to the co-option and disenfranchisement Simon complains about. Individuals have to band tog…

>Well... maybe the problem is that the economy interferes extensively in the government. Well... maybe the government shouldn't have so much power that when influenced it can cause so much harm.

If the government does not have power, someone else will. The governments power is meant to balance out the power of individuals, so that a few do not control society.

I would argue that with that amount of power, government necessarily has the ability to cause harm to the economy/society. Otherwise it fails as a government.

Stripping the government of power will do nothing. We must fix it.

Re: David Simon: 'There are now two Americas. My country is a horror show'

#30

Post by bsirkia »

bluedino wrote: post #23
bsirkia wrote: post #8

The hardest thing for me is that I'm super aware of how fucked up things are, but not totally sure what can done so just say "this sucks" and go back to work and whining about healthcare and listening to Slate podcasts. If I learned anything from the Wire, it's that these problems Simon brings up are so institutionalized that there's almost no way to fix them without some massive change, but I'm too small and irrelev…

The thing people that write these articles don't acknowledge was how fucked up things were in the USA, even in the 'great' times. The 50's and 60's were a booming time for the economy and middle class. But black people still had their lines to wait in, had to sit in the back of the bus, and we had 'colored' drinking fountains. Things have came a long, long way since then. Things might not be perfect and there are bit…

Right, it's easy to look back at the good 'ol days and talk about how great they were, but really overall quality of life on aggregate is empirically improving.
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