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How to Negotiate a Job Offer

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Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#21

Post by GavinB »

gangst wrote: post #17
GavinB wrote: post #14

The "Pre-Reqs" piece is not right. You really don't need to have another job offer or a current job to negotiate. A while ago I wrote up this script for how to negotiate a job offer with no leverage at all when you intend to accept it no matter what: http://bit.ly/1185CGm Most job offers come with leeway for negotiation, regardless of your situation. All you really have to do is ask.

In your script, you have: > You: This is a really great offer because [a sentence or two about why you want to work for them.]. But I was really looking for a little higher compensation. > Then, this is the most important part: they need to speak next. You have to be silent until they respond. They will give you one of three responses: At which point you list the three responses. But the most common (in my experience…

I'd say name a number or range 15-25% above the offer. Or even just "I was hoping for 15-20% more." Thanks, I'll add this.

The point is just to ask for what you want. Often people will give it to you just for asking. It took me a long time to figure this out!

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#22

Post by csbowe »

jtbigwoo wrote: post #12

One more thing from someone who survived a couple startup bubbles: Don't value shares as more than a dollar or two unless the company is the equivalent of Microsoft in the 1990's. It's easy to talk yourself into a "small" valuation of $10 or $20/share when the shares are much more likely to be worth $0.

There is really no way of knowing how much those options are worth without knowing the size of the pool and valuation of the company, anyhow. I treat these as monopoly money unless I actually know what percent of the company I'm being given. Lots of things, namely reverse splits, before an exit can greatly affect the value of those shares!

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#23

Post by orangethirty »

hfsktr wrote: post #6
chollida1 wrote: post #2

> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competition for your talents. Otherwise, you might be able to ask for something small around the margins (eg help with relocation expenses), but you’re not in position for serious negotiation. This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. When I neg…

I have been unemployed for over a year. Today I just got my first offer, which made me go "Coincidence?! Probably." It was less than I wanted but really after a year I feel like I have no power to negotiate. Add to that my personality (avoid confrontation) and the fact that my last job I fell into so I didn't have to negotiate (there wasn't a contract it was just spoken and my checks increased). That excerpt kind of…

I don't think you suffered from bad luck. Just bad marketing. Programmers need to realize that you have to learn how to sell yourself if you want a good steady job.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#24

Post by lumens »

There is definitely good advice here, but a word of caution: Don't miss the forest for the trees.

I've spent a lot of time helping people negotiate job offers. The predominant theme is that offers will vary a bit, and some negotiation may be necessary, but the couple thousand dollars on the table during the discussion is virtually meaningless.

For most of the software devs reading this article, we're talking about a couple of percent of your overall compensation -- an amount that, given the demand of developers in the market today, will end up being taken into account during your first performance review anyway. If you’re good, your employer will want to keep you around and compensate you accordingly.

During negotiations your main priority should be getting the job that’s the best fit. If it really is the best fit, the company will be presenting you a fair offer. It may not be on the top end of normal, but optimizing for price is bad practice when negotiating salary (much like VC term sheets).

Truly enjoying your time at work and being fully engaged and happy with your job is worth tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I’m not suggesting that you accept below market offers. Instead, I’m trying to illustrate that how much you will enjoy each hour of the day is part of the offer, though it’s not written on the document a prospective employer presents you.

Full disclosure: I’m the founder of Mighty Spring (https://www.mightyspring.com) and our aim is to help people find great fitting opportunities quickly and easily, while making these salary negotiations much simpler in the process.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#25

Post by mc-lovin »

halacsy wrote: post #20

i think article is just wrong as it is. Maybe because I'm on the other side hiring engineers. But we don't negotiate salaries. Two factors: what makes you happy/enough (do not think about your salary but about your challenges) and what can we expect from you. I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company. The first part is very personal. People having mortgage an…

Most companies are willing to negotiate, especially when you have a counter-offer. So in general, it is good advice. Most companies do not have the attitude of "I don't care how much money you would make at an other company, because you want to join our company" because they know that most people value some combination of enjoying their work, and how much they get paid, not just one or the other.

>The first part is very personal. People having mortgage and two kids just overvalue themselves. Immigrants in US (and I guess everywhere) just don't need as much money as they don't see the neighbour's grass. Can you explain what you are saying here? Are you saying that only immigrants are willing to take the offers you make, or that you make higher offers to people who overvalue themselves?

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#26

Post by betenoire »

praptak wrote: post #15
johnrob wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am baffled why managers rarely understand 1). In addition to slighting employees, it makes them easy for other companies to poach. It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent.

> It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent. Not to mention that accepting a counter offer is a bad move. The offer might just be to keep you until they find a cheaper replacement. Even if that is not the case you will be perceived as risky - no investment in you, first to fire during tough times. On top of that it perpetuates the crappy tactic "pay peanuts until they thre…

What do you mean "accepting counter offers is a bad move"? What would be the point of negotiating then?

Is this referring to a counter offer after threatening to quit, a counter offer during the hiring process, or both?

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#27

Post by hfsktr »

orangethirty wrote: post #23
hfsktr wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been unemployed for over a year. Today I just got my first offer, which made me go "Coincidence?! Probably." It was less than I wanted but really after a year I feel like I have no power to negotiate. Add to that my personality (avoid confrontation) and the fact that my last job I fell into so I didn't have to negotiate (there wasn't a contract it was just spoken and my checks increased). That excerpt kind of…

I don't think you suffered from bad luck. Just bad marketing. Programmers need to realize that you have to learn how to sell yourself if you want a good steady job.

Some of it might have been bad luck but I didn't really think any of it was. I knew that I was bad at interviewing. I just didn't realize how bad.

My experience is probably more limited than I knew and the area I live in, while having jobs, isn't huge. That added frustration when the same companies had the same job pop up every 3 months (I applied for the new ones every time and never got a call).

I hope that I can prove to this new place I am worth taking a chance on. Just feels good to not have to worry that I am a failure (at least for now).

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#28

Post by afterburner »

hjay wrote: post #7

A bit of an addition to the note on not starting a long-term relationship on the wrong foot with your future employer. I do think negotiating a job offer is very important. It doesn't benefit anyone if you are feeling undervalued/underpaid at a job. Work performance will take a hit, team dynamic will slowly shift, you will wake up every morning dreading to go to work. However, I do think there is a need to resist the…

Well, your employer is definitely treating it like a game.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#29

Post by mhurron »

notahacker wrote: post #18
chollida1 wrote: post #2

> Pre-reqs – If you’re not currently working, and you don’t have competing offers, you’re pretty much out of luck. So task #1 is to make sure you have competition for your talents. Otherwise, you might be able to ask for something small around the margins (eg help with relocation expenses), but you’re not in position for serious negotiation. This is so, so true. Having a strong BATNA is 90% of negotiating. When I neg…

I felt the article missed the employer's BATNA though. If they loved you and your unusual skillset and their offer is well below market rate, you're in a much stronger position to negotiate than if they narrowly favoured you for a position they're not going to find difficult to fill, in which case they might be quite happy to suggest you walk away and work for BigCorp and their 30% extra perks package.

If they offer well below market rate, they didn't love you. An offer that much lower than what you could expect elsewhere is probably not worth negotiating with, they've already what they value you at.

Obviously this means you need to do your research and have a realistic idea what your skill set is worth. Don't let ego get in the way of that research.

Re: How to Negotiate a Job Offer

#30

Post by hfsktr »

betenoire wrote: post #26
praptak wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's also messy and expensive to counter offer once a resignation letter has been sent. Not to mention that accepting a counter offer is a bad move. The offer might just be to keep you until they find a cheaper replacement. Even if that is not the case you will be perceived as risky - no investment in you, first to fire during tough times. On top of that it perpetuates the crappy tactic "pay peanuts until they thre…

What do you mean "accepting counter offers is a bad move"? What would be the point of negotiating then? Is this referring to a counter offer after threatening to quit, a counter offer during the hiring process, or both?

I would assume after threatening to leave.

Here's a thread from a while ago discussing counter offers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4970843

From what I gather when you dislike it enough to quit you start to resent little things. No more free coffee, no vacation, too many hours, office politics/culture. Not the money.

Not always the case but when you get to the tipping point it's because things went too far already.

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