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Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

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Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#21

Post by jlgreco »

alaskamiller wrote: post #16
btilly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial. They kill themselves after they have lost at trial. Citation needed. It makes perfect sense to me that a depressed person who has realized what trial is going to cost, and who does not believe that anyone is going to believe them, would commit suicide. An innocent person who BELIEVES that they WILL be believed probably reacts very…

Are you a clinical psychologist? Do you have citations for your perfect sense? Can you quantify your lack of surprise?

Is rprasad a clinical psychologist?.

If he is pulling things out of his ass without citations, it seems reasonable that he receive responses that do the same.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#22

Post by nighthawk »

rayiner wrote: post #18
rdtsc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial. Yap. Because they will clearly receive a speedy and fair trial. Without bullying and predatory plea bargaining involved. In the end when they are sure to be acquitted, if the accuser is the government, they will get all court and lawyer costs paid, and then some extra for time, inconvenience and the pain involved.

This particular person was earlier caught hacking into computers at the DOD and NASA (as a minor). He was indicted around June or July and entered a plea in September for which he received six months of house arrest and probation until 18 (about a year). It's not a reasonable presumption that this was someone who was innocent who knew he was going to get railroaded "by the system." He was clearly someone who knew he…

>"He was clearly someone who knew he had really fucked up this time and couldn't use his age as an excuse."

That's a bold statement - I don't know his full history or all the facts of his case, but what you're implying is that someone's past actions and convictions are all that's needed to asses their present guilt.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe he was innocent and maybe he knew everyone would think like you? It doesn't take much to realize that this way of thinking quickly leads to a conviction regardless of the facts.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#23

Post by rayiner »

nighthawk wrote: post #22
rayiner wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This particular person was earlier caught hacking into computers at the DOD and NASA (as a minor). He was indicted around June or July and entered a plea in September for which he received six months of house arrest and probation until 18 (about a year). It's not a reasonable presumption that this was someone who was innocent who knew he was going to get railroaded "by the system." He was clearly someone who knew he…

>"He was clearly someone who knew he had really fucked up this time and couldn't use his age as an excuse." That's a bold statement - I don't know his full history or all the facts of his case, but what you're implying is that someone's past actions and convictions are all that's needed to asses their present guilt. Did it ever occur to you that maybe he was innocent and maybe he knew everyone would think like you? I…

At trial evidence of his past conviction would have been suppressed for precisely the reason you state. However, the rules of evidence for internet posting are not quite so strict.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#24

Post by [deleted] »

alaskamiller wrote: post #16
btilly wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial. They kill themselves after they have lost at trial. Citation needed. It makes perfect sense to me that a depressed person who has realized what trial is going to cost, and who does not believe that anyone is going to believe them, would commit suicide. An innocent person who BELIEVES that they WILL be believed probably reacts very…

Are you a clinical psychologist? Do you have citations for your perfect sense? Can you quantify your lack of surprise?

[deleted]

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#25

Post by btilly »

rayiner wrote: post #18
rdtsc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Innocent people do not kill themselves when confronted with the possibility of a trial. Yap. Because they will clearly receive a speedy and fair trial. Without bullying and predatory plea bargaining involved. In the end when they are sure to be acquitted, if the accuser is the government, they will get all court and lawyer costs paid, and then some extra for time, inconvenience and the pain involved.

This particular person was earlier caught hacking into computers at the DOD and NASA (as a minor). He was indicted around June or July and entered a plea in September for which he received six months of house arrest and probation until 18 (about a year). It's not a reasonable presumption that this was someone who was innocent who knew he was going to get railroaded "by the system." He was clearly someone who knew he…

I would agree that it is somewhat unlikely that he was innocent, but it is far from impossible that he actually was.

There are people who will try to root your computer, and who prefer to do their bad stuff from someone else's computer so that the heat won't come back to them. If you hang around with the wrong crowd and don't know what you're doing well enough, the odds of this happening go up. Suppose that this happened to him the first time around, and the forensics were done poorly, so he took the fall for someone else's crime. Then it starts happening again, and he knows he won't be believed because he wasn't before.

I would rate this scenario as unlikely, but not impossible. However plausible enough that I don't accept the clearly in, "He was clearly someone..."

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#26

Post by djt »

jlgreco wrote: post #20
tych0 wrote: post #2

> In 2008 Jonathan James killed himself after being implicated in the largest personal identity hack in history. Wrong kind of hacker.

Or, from another perspective: The same kind of hacker.

alleged credit card fraud is different from Aaron's case I would say.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#27

Post by btilly »

jlgreco wrote: post #21
alaskamiller wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a clinical psychologist? Do you have citations for your perfect sense? Can you quantify your lack of surprise?

Is rprasad a clinical psychologist?. If he is pulling things out of his ass without citations, it seems reasonable that he receive responses that do the same.

More to the point, rprasad is making sweeping statements of fact, along the lines of, "Anyone who commits suicide before trial must be guilty." I'm making what are clearly statements of personal opinion, along the lines of, "Here is a scenario where I can imagine the stress of a legal case tipping a depressed person over the cliff into suicide."

Strong claims require strong evidence. I'm making far, far weaker claims. The burden of proof should squarely be on rprasad.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#28

Post by rpm4321 »

joering2 wrote: post #4

Don't think twice if devil has horns or tail; here is the photo: http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/2013/01/Stephen-Heymann....

Pic is of Rafael Reif, not Heymann.

Wow, I think there probably should be consequences for Heymann (and possibly Ortiz), but in one sentence you've probably given the best demonstration of why vigilante justice is so troubling.

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#29

Post by jlgreco »

djt wrote: post #26
jlgreco wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, from another perspective: The same kind of hacker.

alleged credit card fraud is different from Aaron's case I would say.

In your point of view, a reasonable point of view, yes of course. To an apparently unreasonable prosecutor though?

Re: Prosecutor pursuing Aaron Swartz linked to suicide of another hacker

#30

Post by nnq »

I bet 99% of "hackers" (I'm using the criminal sense of the word, that I hate to use, btw) have psychological issues of one way or another and they are a suicide risk! The SS, prosecutors and whoever handles these people should fucking take that into account and put it in balance with the fact that they are a valuable resource to society! You may put a "criminal hacker" in jail for credit card fraud, but chances are, if he doesn't stay in there too long to get his brain "fried", he will grow up to become the security guy that keeps shit safe so you can keep online shopping 'till you drop!

I mean... these guys are a subset of what one calls "infosec field people" that are a subset of "IT people" that are a subset of "tech people"... the smaller the subset the less the chance that a member of it will be (1) "well socialized", (2) "psychologically robust" or even (3) "sane"... add up that they're in their 20s and... what would you freakin expect?!

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