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Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

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Re: Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

#21
post #4

His views are insubstantial. His main argument is that his previous ad hominem positions were not sufficient to condemn GMOs (correct) and that GMOs haven't caused any problems yet. He has not presented evidence that GMO's are safe. He has two main arguments: 1. Trial and error crossbreeding affects entire genes. 2. Viruses sometimes spread genes from one organism to another. First, trial and error crossbreeding isn'…

When we mess with it, we make incremental visible gains, and run the risk of large, invisible losses.

There are uncountable ways in which we all "mess with" Nature on a daily basis, both individually and as a society. Why single out this one?

Re: Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

#22
post #4

His views are insubstantial. His main argument is that his previous ad hominem positions were not sufficient to condemn GMOs (correct) and that GMOs haven't caused any problems yet. He has not presented evidence that GMO's are safe. He has two main arguments: 1. Trial and error crossbreeding affects entire genes. 2. Viruses sometimes spread genes from one organism to another. First, trial and error crossbreeding isn'…

>>I'm making a Talebian argument here. Nature is a VERY complex system. When we mess with it, we make incremental visible gains, and run the risk of large, invisible losses. I've never understood this argument. It basically amounts to "yes, there are advantages to GMOs, but we haven't found any disadvantages yet, therefore they are unsafe!" This is basically the equivalent of early seafarers being afraid of uncharted…

If an early seafarer went down with his/her ship, it didn't affect a significant portion of the population. GMO foods are more like, "Hey look! I invented this new banana in a test tube! It looks safe, so it must be! Here eat it! Does it cause problems when you eat these types of bananas for 20 or 30 years? Who knows! Just eat it, it looks safe!"

Re: Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

#23
post #14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what sort of realistic disaster scenario you think might occur due to cross-species gene transfer (and for that matter, purely synthetic genes) in GMOs, and how the existing safeguards are inadequate against it. Normally I'm against FUD, but please, go nuts, so long as there's a reasonable chance of it occurring (i.e. we're not talking about a mad scientist who wants to create man-eating plants)

Weed-killer resistance transfers to a weed, helping boost it to invasive species? Some mutation makes crop more vulnerable to a particular plant virus, destroying 80% of that crop in EU or US? A huge multinational wants to include "TERMINATOR GENES" in their crops to make sure the cropped seed cannot grow; environmentalists freak out at the name and oppose that; the multinational doesn't include that gene but now ins…

> Some mutation makes crop more vulnerable to a particular plant virus, destroying 80% of that crop in EU or US?

This is already a risk because industrial agriculture is optimized for monocrops.

Re: Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

#25
I think that the real problem is the false dichotomy between 'all GMOs are bad' and 'all GMOs are good'. There is clearly a middle path - 'some GMOs are safe, and some aren't, and whether release is acceptable depends on the organisms, the genes, the methods used, and the level of testing done'.

I don't think putting herbicide resistance genes into plant species that don't already have them is a very good idea, because it is a short term solution (selective pressure on weeds will eventually create the same thing anyway), has other environmental costs (the evidence last time I checked is that while glyphosate breaks down quickly, if it gets into waterways in the short period before it has broken down, it can cause considerable damage), and even without any form of gene transfer can end up as a weed (the definition of a weed is a plant growing somewhere where it is unwanted - GMO corn in a GMO soy field is a weed).

Even worse applications can be imagined - for example, imagine a cultivar of corn with genes for a drug, where the corn is toxic because of high levels of the drug - would you want that growing in the next field over from where the corn you are going to eat grows?

I think that it is right for reasonable precautionary measures to be in place whenever substantial genetic engineering of plants is going on, whether it is through transgenic methods, through mutagenically exposed plants, or even through selective breeding combined with sequencing, because there are still high risks.

It is the extreme positions of absolute prohibition or absolute acceptance of all GMOs which are irrational.

Re: Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

#26
post #4

His views are insubstantial. His main argument is that his previous ad hominem positions were not sufficient to condemn GMOs (correct) and that GMOs haven't caused any problems yet. He has not presented evidence that GMO's are safe. He has two main arguments: 1. Trial and error crossbreeding affects entire genes. 2. Viruses sometimes spread genes from one organism to another. First, trial and error crossbreeding isn'…

Without addressing the validity or invalidity of your assessment of the merits of his position (or the position itself), his views are insubstantial (or at least of limited substance) for some other reasons too.

For instance, while he appeals to science and reason here, not all the organic-enviro-antiGMO complex holds its positions for reasons of science. There's a substantial number of people for whom it is part of superstitious and para-religious reasoning behind peoples' objections. (In other news, Whole Foods sells homeopathic remedies.) Even beyond the superstitious, there are a lot of anti-GMO advocates whose primary form of investment is emotional, not intellectual. (Actually, you could probably say that about most political positions...)

It's easy enough to treat the guy as a heretic in that sort of environment.

Re: Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

#27
As someone who is totally dependent on a gluten-free diet to avoid constant sickness, the idea of people tinkering with food proteins is horrifying. If it's employed for very particular, controlled reasons then so be it. But there is the potential for immense hubris here. Note that when I went to the doctor some years ago and told them I was sure bread was making me sick they told me I was wrong because I tested negative for Celiac disease.

Re: Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

#28
post #9

I'm always surprised and intrigued when people switch from being vehemently on one side of a debate to the other. I'm reminded of televangelist Pat Robertson claiming that the Earth is way more than 6,000 years old: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/29/pat-robertson-chall...

One of my favorite conversation prompts is to ask people, "what have you read recently that changed your mind about some issue?" People happily reinforce their own cognitive dissonance with internet "news bubbles" and echo chamber forums. Letting your mental guard down to fairly reevaluate your own beliefs is an unfortunately rare event.

Re: Mark Lynas, environmentalist who opposed GMOs, admits he was wrong.

#30
post #8
post #4

His views are insubstantial. His main argument is that his previous ad hominem positions were not sufficient to condemn GMOs (correct) and that GMOs haven't caused any problems yet. He has not presented evidence that GMO's are safe. He has two main arguments: 1. Trial and error crossbreeding affects entire genes. 2. Viruses sometimes spread genes from one organism to another. First, trial and error crossbreeding isn'…

I'm curious what sort of realistic disaster scenario you think might occur due to cross-species gene transfer (and for that matter, purely synthetic genes) in GMOs, and how the existing safeguards are inadequate against it. Normally I'm against FUD, but please, go nuts, so long as there's a reasonable chance of it occurring (i.e. we're not talking about a mad scientist who wants to create man-eating plants)

A protein is added that adversely affects the gut. Think gluten.
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