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How To Lose Weight And Influence People

mikealrogers.com

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Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#21

Post by jacques_chester »

mipapage wrote: post #17
jacques_chester wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read my longer blog post. I go over the whole matter. The tl;dr is that ketosis is not exempt from the laws of physics.

While admittedly I haven't taken the time to read your entire blog post, I'm throwing this link out there for your perusal: http://thatpaleoguy.com/2012/12/19/calorie-rants-and-ketosis... Quite simply, you have to consider how a calorie takes the path to becoming a calorie in our system, imo.

My overarching theme in my blog post is that the underlying complexity (which absolutely exists) is utterly optional for actually controlling weight. You just don't need to know it or understand it.

    Eat less --> weigh less
and

    Eat more --> weigh more
Are sufficiently good that you can form a working control system with them. No other variables need be observed or cared about.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#22

Post by forgottenpaswrd »

jacques_chester wrote: post #5
angersock wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read The Hacker's Diet a while ago, and it seemed reasonable to my old control-systems training. What's the current sort of counter-argument to the abstraction presented there?

The counter argument seems to be that ketosis is somehow magically exempt from the laws of physics. One of those blog posts sparked exactly such a discussion -- that the body was "too complex" to be governed by mere physics.

"that the body was "too complex" to be governed by mere physics."

The body is too complex to be governed by "mere physics", because it uses control systems that regulate the intake process.

I can eat three times more than a friend of mine, and incorporate to my body way less than my friend, because bacteria and virus in my intestines are completely different from hers. Also my body is different.

A calorie of fat has nothing to do with a calorie of sucrose or glucose.

"Mere physics" of burning something at 1000C and measuring the thermal output is completely different from the "real physics"of metabolizing substances in a 20 different steps chain process, where every step could be inhibited or excited by cell control systems.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#23

Post by TeMPOraL »

mipapage wrote: post #17
jacques_chester wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read my longer blog post. I go over the whole matter. The tl;dr is that ketosis is not exempt from the laws of physics.

While admittedly I haven't taken the time to read your entire blog post, I'm throwing this link out there for your perusal: http://thatpaleoguy.com/2012/12/19/calorie-rants-and-ketosis... Quite simply, you have to consider how a calorie takes the path to becoming a calorie in our system, imo.

However it does, simple feedback loop with adjustments proportional to minus weight difference (aka. are you gaining on weight? eat less.) should still work regardless of what you eat and what "types" of calories there are. It's not just calories-in / calories-out, it's a feedback loop between your weight and amount of calories you eat, and that - as Jacques wrote - tends to disregard internal state and processes by the very definition of how it works.

The trick is, what I so far found out, to establish a set of meals that you can actually stick to for a longer time without feeling nauseous, while still maintaining calorie deficit. There are also issues like insulin reaction; so far I believe in this one, as hunger doesn't seem to feel as bad and doesn't disable my thinking since around the time I cut out sugars completely (I used to drink a lot of them). But accounting for all those things only helps you to stick with your diet.

So bottomline, I think that most of the other mechanisms people bring up are important not for weight loss per se, but for the ability to stick with a given diet for longer, while calorie deficit does it work.

FYI: I'm on keto for just over two months (with lot of cheating unfortunately - there were so many parties recently...) and have lost 10kg in that time.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#24

Post by jacques_chester »

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #22
jacques_chester wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument seems to be that ketosis is somehow magically exempt from the laws of physics. One of those blog posts sparked exactly such a discussion -- that the body was "too complex" to be governed by mere physics.

"that the body was "too complex" to be governed by mere physics." The body is too complex to be governed by "mere physics", because it uses control systems that regulate the intake process. I can eat three times more than a friend of mine, and incorporate to my body way less than my friend, because bacteria and virus in my intestines are completely different from hers. Also my body is different. A calorie of fat has…

As I say elsewhere, all this is by the by; all that matters is net calorie balance and all that's needed is to compare inputs (diet, exercise) with outputs (weight, appearance).

Your friend no more needs to know about your gut flora than you need to know about my insulin sensitivity.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#25

Post by jacques_chester »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #23
mipapage wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While admittedly I haven't taken the time to read your entire blog post, I'm throwing this link out there for your perusal: http://thatpaleoguy.com/2012/12/19/calorie-rants-and-ketosis... Quite simply, you have to consider how a calorie takes the path to becoming a calorie in our system, imo.

However it does, simple feedback loop with adjustments proportional to minus weight difference (aka. are you gaining on weight? eat less.) should still work regardless of what you eat and what "types" of calories there are. It's not just calories-in / calories-out, it's a feedback loop between your weight and amount of calories you eat, and that - as Jacques wrote - tends to disregard internal state and processes by…

Are you me (apart from the keto)? Because this is pretty much what I am trying to convey.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#26

Post by kyberias »

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #22
jacques_chester wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter argument seems to be that ketosis is somehow magically exempt from the laws of physics. One of those blog posts sparked exactly such a discussion -- that the body was "too complex" to be governed by mere physics.

"that the body was "too complex" to be governed by mere physics." The body is too complex to be governed by "mere physics", because it uses control systems that regulate the intake process. I can eat three times more than a friend of mine, and incorporate to my body way less than my friend, because bacteria and virus in my intestines are completely different from hers. Also my body is different. A calorie of fat has…

I doubt that you can eat three times more than your friend. In fact, that is impossible. Please provide us with some real numbers and data.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#27

Post by TeMPOraL »

jacques_chester wrote: post #25
TeMPOraL wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However it does, simple feedback loop with adjustments proportional to minus weight difference (aka. are you gaining on weight? eat less.) should still work regardless of what you eat and what "types" of calories there are. It's not just calories-in / calories-out, it's a feedback loop between your weight and amount of calories you eat, and that - as Jacques wrote - tends to disregard internal state and processes by…

Are you me (apart from the keto)? Because this is pretty much what I am trying to convey.

I don't think I'm you, but I do agree with what you wrote :). I also found the basic understanding of control theoery... enlightening, in many areas of life, not only dieting. I hate when people argue over whether A causes B or B causes A, and fail to notice a feedback loop in work.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#28

Post by eof »

jacques_chester wrote: post #12
eof wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offence but your post is overly simplistic and not in anyway convincing that your actual thesis is a complete picture of what is going on. It is undeniably true that calories in vs calories out is a driving factor, it is not however the only factor. Your article shows how you think about diet/weight, and is not really reflective of any strong scientific understanding, and, in my opinion, needlessly disregards "… i…

Care to elaborate? I can only suspect that, as usual, this will turn out to be a dispute over the boundaries of the system we're discussing (single-human-body-mass-system vs economy-society-and-single-human-body-system). If you genuinely believe that net calorie balance isn't the sole determinant of long term average mass, then I'd like to know what else it could be. Saying "oh it must be more complex than that!" isn…

For example, it is possible I am eating 2000 calories a day, burning 1900 and shitting out 100.

EDIT--because I am too lazy to wait to post to daughter comment--

It is possible, for example, that if I eat a FOO, which has 100 calories, it will change effeciencies of systems in my body in tangental ways so as to cause it to burn 5% more calories than it would have if I didn't eat a FOO.

I could also eat a candyBAR which has 100 calories, that causes it to burn 5% less calories than if I didn't eat a candyBAR.

Thus, conclusively proving that "calories in" and ignoring the actual foods eaten is absurd.

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#29

Post by shaunxcode »

Tichy wrote: post #11

I've been a vegetarian since I was 18 and always was very slim, until a couple of years ago (mid thirties - actually not a strict vegetarian anymore in recent years). The vegetarian diet was of course very rich in carbs. I don't see a way to go low carb as a vegetarian. That I was slim with a "high carbs" diet for 20 years also makes me doubt the carbs theory a bit. There seem to be other factors. I exercise less, bu…

Just my anecdote/experience - but I've been vegan since I was 18 (now 30). I knew that as I got older my metabolism would drop off but a little over a year ago I weighed 248 (I am 6'1") which was a wake up call.

To rectify things I picked up running on the reg again and cut the shit from my diet e.g. no added/processed fats at all (you can get more than enough from whole grains, legumes, and vegetables) and I am down to 185. Meaning I am actually lighter, healthier and more "energized" now than when I was 16.

I can recommend the rave diet book and the mcdougal books for recipes/theory. I also keep a photo blog if you want an idea of what my average diet looks like on http://www.stoicvegan.com

Re: How To Lose Weight And Influence People

#30

Post by jacques_chester »

kyberias wrote: post #26
forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"that the body was "too complex" to be governed by mere physics." The body is too complex to be governed by "mere physics", because it uses control systems that regulate the intake process. I can eat three times more than a friend of mine, and incorporate to my body way less than my friend, because bacteria and virus in my intestines are completely different from hers. Also my body is different. A calorie of fat has…

I doubt that you can eat three times more than your friend. In fact, that is impossible. Please provide us with some real numbers and data.

If I may generalise most offensively, people in prosperous societies have basically no freaking idea how much they are eating (or not eating, as the case may be).

Eg:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7869932

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2082216

I remember talking to a (rake-thin) cousin of mine about this when we went to dinner one night. "I eat as much as anyone", he protested.

Later in the evening, noticed that while I had finished the chips that came with our dinners, he had not.

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