BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#21

Post by brianchu » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 10:59 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #14

obstacle1 wrote: post #12

Out of curiosity, why are the complainers in this case not being called out for their own racism/discrimination? The fact that a panel consists of white males, straight males, or purple elephants is not in itself evidence of discrimination. It is entirely possible that these were the most qualified of all applicants to have submitted to this conference. Without knowing the details of the applicant pool, anyone scream…

There are several definitions of racism, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)", or more simply "anything based on race". Lots of people like this definition because it's a nice, simple and objective defintion and it means black people in the UK can be racist to white people, or that affirmative action is racist. I think this is the…

The problem is that having conference speakers who happen to be disproportionate in race does not immediately translate to racism.

To say that the composition of a group of speakers is "designed to maintain & reinforce the institutionalised power structure among races" simply based off of the proportion of races of people in the panel is a logical leap that is not necessarily warranted.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#22

Post by EliRivers » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:04 AM UTC

klaut wrote: post #15

obstacle1 wrote: post #12

Out of curiosity, why are the complainers in this case not being called out for their own racism/discrimination? The fact that a panel consists of white males, straight males, or purple elephants is not in itself evidence of discrimination. It is entirely possible that these were the most qualified of all applicants to have submitted to this conference. Without knowing the details of the applicant pool, anyone scream…

Excellent point! I see more and more of this hysterical attitude in tech. If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you.

"If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you."

This sounds like a straw man argument. You've created the fictional idea of a person whose interest in a conference is solely the diversity of the panel, as if there are people who don't even care what the conference is about or have any idea of the subject matter; they just like seeing different kinds of people on panels.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#23

Post by 9392732 » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:05 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #18

9392732 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would complaining about a lack of males entering medical school or presenting at a conference on child care be discriminatory?

Medical School? Like for doctors? I thought that was roughly 1:1, rather than 15:1 in tech? If the figures are well off and men are being systemetically disadvantaged due to their gender in medical school, then yes we should have affirmative active for it. I'm skeptical though because traditionally medicine has been heavily male dominated. Yes we should probably do something to get more men into child care & nursing…

http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7455/1545

White people are under represented relative to the population in UK medical schools in this study

http://www.bmj.com/content/336/7647/748

Women out number men in western medical school

Will we ever see drives to increase white males into this profession? I doubt it

There are female interest groups to promote women in surgery, female only exam practice etc despite them making up the majority. Could there ever be male only revision sessions? Of course not, that would be sexist

(My partner is a female doctor)

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#24

Post by klaut » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:08 AM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #22

klaut wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent point! I see more and more of this hysterical attitude in tech. If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you.

"If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you." This sounds like a straw man argument. You've created the fictional idea of a person whose interest in a conference is solely the diversity of the panel, as if there are people who don't even care what the conference is about or have any idea of the subject matter; they just like seeing different kinds of…

well, this is exactly what I get from all those who are complaining. To me, they seem more interested in sex/gender/race of the speakers than WHAT is going to be presented.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#25

Post by mseebach2 » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:11 AM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #19

coolestuk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shambles could only happen in Britain. Senior politicians get accused of being paedophiles by journalists with no evidence. Politicians routinely steal from public coffers, and don't even lose their place in Parliament (even though some were sent to prison). The country is awash with video surveillance, yet trying to get the police to respond to a crime report is like swimming upstream. A christian preacher who…

I disagree: it could have happened in many Western countries. The problem with a 'it's political correctness gone mad!' argument is it ignores the context in which those laws were enacted. Racism and sexism were systematic and endemic in the UK during much of the 20th century. You say that "political correctness had taken hold in local government by the early 1980s", but you don't mention that the reason for this was…

> Hate speech and anti-discrimination laws have drastically improved the lives of millions of people in the UK.

Cause and effect, dude. This happened in the same time frame in virtually every single developed country on earth with different ways of approaching the issue. Chances are that being more tolerant was simply just an idea whose time had come.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#26

Post by Wintamute » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:11 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #14

obstacle1 wrote: post #12

Out of curiosity, why are the complainers in this case not being called out for their own racism/discrimination? The fact that a panel consists of white males, straight males, or purple elephants is not in itself evidence of discrimination. It is entirely possible that these were the most qualified of all applicants to have submitted to this conference. Without knowing the details of the applicant pool, anyone scream…

There are several definitions of racism, one is essentially "making references to someone's race and implying everyone in that group is the same (in some attribute)", or more simply "anything based on race". Lots of people like this definition because it's a nice, simple and objective defintion and it means black people in the UK can be racist to white people, or that affirmative action is racist. I think this is the…

I like the core thinking behind your definition of racism (that we should all self analyse and take affirmative action to fix problems), but I don't think it's necessarily helpful, or even logical to define racism in this way. If we all went around with highly specialised individual definitions for emotive terms then we're not communicating effectively, and probably needlessly annoying each other. I'm not sure I agree fully with any of your definitions of racism really. The sort of racism under discussion here is simply and obviously a) believing in racial inferiorities and then b) discriminating against them. Of course there exists a spectrum of racism here, and where observed actions appear on this spectrum is probably the most lucrative area to look at. Rational discussion can only occur once terms have been agreed and defined, and using your own definitions is not all that constructive.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#27

Post by joeycfan » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:13 AM UTC

obstacle1 wrote: post #12

Out of curiosity, why are the complainers in this case not being called out for their own racism/discrimination? The fact that a panel consists of white males, straight males, or purple elephants is not in itself evidence of discrimination. It is entirely possible that these were the most qualified of all applicants to have submitted to this conference. Without knowing the details of the applicant pool, anyone scream…

It doesn't matter. What matters is the sponsors spooked and pulled the money. Show over.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#28

Post by FuzzyDunlop » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:22 AM UTC

coolestuk wrote: post #8

thedudemabry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely an interesting development. While I'm saddened to see a Ruby conference canceled with a full roster of qualified speakers, I'm happier to see the pendulum on this side of perfect balance than the alternative. This problem has clearer and more positive strategies than its opposite. Edit: Whoa. I did more than 10 seconds of research and this situation is more fucked than I snap-judged. My heart goes…

This shambles could only happen in Britain. Senior politicians get accused of being paedophiles by journalists with no evidence. Politicians routinely steal from public coffers, and don't even lose their place in Parliament (even though some were sent to prison). The country is awash with video surveillance, yet trying to get the police to respond to a crime report is like swimming upstream. A christian preacher who…

In fairness the tweet that presumably started it all originated from San Francisco.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#29

Post by EliRivers » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:23 AM UTC

klaut wrote: post #24

EliRivers wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If your only concern with a conference is about the panel diversity then perhaps the conference is not for you." This sounds like a straw man argument. You've created the fictional idea of a person whose interest in a conference is solely the diversity of the panel, as if there are people who don't even care what the conference is about or have any idea of the subject matter; they just like seeing different kinds of…

well, this is exactly what I get from all those who are complaining. To me, they seem more interested in sex/gender/race of the speakers than WHAT is going to be presented.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease. These people are clearly willing to complain. No complaints about what is being presented implies only that they are satisfied with what is being presented; it does not imply that they do not care about it.

Re: BritRuby cancelled due to a lack of racial and gender diversity

#30

Post by mseebach2 » Mon, Nov 19, 2012, 11:26 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #17

coolestuk wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shambles could only happen in Britain. Senior politicians get accused of being paedophiles by journalists with no evidence. Politicians routinely steal from public coffers, and don't even lose their place in Parliament (even though some were sent to prison). The country is awash with video surveillance, yet trying to get the police to respond to a crime report is like swimming upstream. A christian preacher who…

Political Correctness is great if you are a minority. It means you have similar rights to the powerful group. As a gay man, I know I can mention the gender of my spouse (male!) in a workplace environment without being worried about being fired (for example). Straight people have always (more or less) been able to mention their spouse in the workplace without fear of repercussion. Now I can too! Political Correctness…

That's not political correctness, that's anti-discrimination.

Political correctness is "Seasons Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending non-Christians. It's idiotic because for those not celebrating Christmas, indeed those that might be offended by mentions of Christmas, there is no season to celebrate. Don't send them a card. "Seasons greetings" is not "culture neutral", it's a code for Christmas. Pretending people are too stupid to figure out why suddenly people are eager to wish them a particular great third week of December is very offensive, IMO.