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The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

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Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#21

Post by onjectic »

dangus wrote: post #11

The problem that UBI will never get over is the fact that it just smells like something suspicious. It smells like something capitalists can exploit. Landlords and other oligopolistic goods-sellers with a lot of leverage and cartel-like dynamics can now count on a base income for everyone. I don’t see how low income housing doesn’t instantly becomes more expensive across the board, with profits funneled to establishe…

I would say it’s meant to be exploited in the way you are describing and really just a progressive tax mechanism, but instead of hitting zero tax at zero income, you hit zero higher and can start to pay “negative tax”.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#22

Post by dangus »

jclulow wrote: post #15
dangus wrote: post #11

The problem that UBI will never get over is the fact that it just smells like something suspicious. It smells like something capitalists can exploit. Landlords and other oligopolistic goods-sellers with a lot of leverage and cartel-like dynamics can now count on a base income for everyone. I don’t see how low income housing doesn’t instantly becomes more expensive across the board, with profits funneled to establishe…

As opposed to all the regular kinds of shitty behaviour landlords inflict on their tenants already? I feel like "because the money people will continue to misbehave" is absolutely not a reason to avoid doing something.

UBI is unique. When I get a raise at work, my landlord doesn’t know. If you implement UBI, every landlord knows that every tenant in the whole country has $xxxx more per month to pay.

Literally 100% of them will raise the rent and there won’t be anything anyone can do about it.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#23

Post by dangus »

89756539864 wrote: post #16
dangus wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you pay the government to ensure that its citizens aren’t in desperate poverty you are also getting the service in return where you aren’t getting violently mugged and robbed all the time. If every American was forced by some kind of mandatory conscription to spend a percentage of their life living in the poorest neighborhoods in America they’d probably become pro-social safety net pretty quick.

Your service sounds like a mafia protection racket.

Congrats, you learned what government is. Next you’ll learn about the Pinkertons.

But this is a real concept. The elite of this world legitimately need pitchfork insurance.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#24

Post by gruez »

exabrial wrote: post #3

How do I opt out of a ubi, where I can keep everything I [rightfully] earned?

Go to a country that don't have UBI? This seems like something that would easily resolve itself. Some countries will have UBI and some won't. If the UBI proponents are right and UBI leads to more human flourishing and a more productive populace, the UBI countries will win out. If the UBI doomers are right that UBI would lead to people getting lazy, the UBI countries will get eclipsed by non-UBI countries.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#25

Post by stevenalowe »

gruez wrote: post #20
stevenalowe wrote: post #8

What happens if nobody works and how will we afford it are absolutely valid questions. A sovereign fund might answer both

>A sovereign fund might answer both Barring AGI and a swarm of drones/nanobots, you still need people to work. Money is just a unit of exchange. If everyone on earth has a billion dollars, but nobody wants to work, nobody is going to be driving around in lambos.

This might seem outrageous but I expect to see it in the next couple of decades as AI and robots continue to get better and cheaper

Utopia or dystopia? Probably both, unevenly distributed

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#26

Post by stevenalowe »

travisb wrote: post #18
_aavaa_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody works That isn’t behavior that occurred in the pilot problems they talk about it.

All the participants in those pilot programs *know* they are in a time-limited pilot programs and that in a handful of years the money will dry up. This is a major flaw in all UBI studies which make them all but useless. It will take 15 or 20 years before any UBI could be considered permanent enough for a majority of people to change their work habits.

Two or three generations would be my guess

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#28

Post by MattRix »

travisb wrote: post #18
_aavaa_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nobody works That isn’t behavior that occurred in the pilot problems they talk about it.

All the participants in those pilot programs *know* they are in a time-limited pilot programs and that in a handful of years the money will dry up. This is a major flaw in all UBI studies which make them all but useless. It will take 15 or 20 years before any UBI could be considered permanent enough for a majority of people to change their work habits.

People’s habits are not usually driven by such long term thinking, but I think there’s a more fundamental thing you’re missing: People will continue to work as long as there is an advantage to working. In any well designed UBI system, those who are on UBI and continue to work will make more money than those on UBI alone, so most people will continue to work.

Not to mention that most people enjoy working as it gives them a sense of purpose.

Re: The Fatal Trap UBI Boosters Keep Falling Into

#29

Post by bigyabai »

gritten wrote: post #10
ares623 wrote: post #4

Why don’t fascist regimes push for UBI? Wouldn’t it be in their best interest to pay off the population unless they risk being “demonetised” completely? Edit: I guess the oil kingdoms in the ME are kinda that

Do you mean democratic regimes? Fascism tends to reward work rate, contribution, cooperation, etc., and is typically nationalistic - there is no (Western) nation right now without an enormous proportion of ethnic foreigners whereby a UBI would effectively constitute a massive wealth transfer from the domestic population to immigrants (which is, needless to say, contrary to fascist objectives). This is basically what…

I think they mean fascist, and it's a good question - will the common person toe the line if they get paid to accept it? We almost saw this in the MEFO bill era of the Nazi German economy, where the Wehrmacht's industrial demand reanimated the half-dead German manufacturers. Many poor German citizens got jobs and homes in this era, despite the ongoing tragedy.

Democracy is underpinned by populism, if the average person feels like UBI would harm the economy then they'll vote against it. Fascism, authoritarianism and planned economies can completely skip the public opinion portion and just start paying people out-of-pocket if they're liquid enough. We may see something similar here in the US as Trump considers a public tariff stipend to refute accusations of a recession: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2025/11/19/trump-2000-ta...

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