Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#21

Post by stego-tech » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 6:59 PM UTC

Have an employment attorney always look over said agreements before signing. A local acquaintance who did work for an MSP had said MSP try such a ploy, only for the employment attorney to sue and get it thrown out as unreasonable and unenforceable.

Never, EVER sign a contract without reading it first, and having your lawyer review it.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#22

Post by exe34 » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:01 PM UTC

> They argue it would be impossible for you to work elsewhere in this industry during your entire career without violating confidentiality with the technical and business instincts you bring to that domain

In that case you need to ask for a lifetime worth of salary, including growth from being in position to be put in escrow before you sign the dotted line. Otherwise they can hire you and fire you immediately and you'd never be able to work in your field that you spent years/decades training for.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#23

Post by eirikbakke » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:01 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #8

throwarayes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far it seems maybe?, but according to the article some courts and agencies are pushing back. Well the FTC was at least in 2023. California bans anything that is effectively a non compete.

Technically, maybe, but effectively, nobody is going to be able to withstand BigCorp's 100 lawyers whose mission is to bury you in legal fees if you push back. By the time that you confirm these things are unenforceable, you've spent your life savings on $millions in legal fees, and possibly gone into crippling debt. In the legal system, might (wealth + lawyer quantity) makes right.

As I recall from John Akula's Corporate Law class, judges in the US tend to be sympathetic to the following argument:

"Defendant has never worked in any other industry. He has three kids. He's gotta work."

(That's for regular employees--it's a different issue with founders who may have significant equity stake and such.)

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#24

Post by ivan_gammel » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:03 PM UTC

If I understand it right, those NDAs work as non-competes if “confidential” is defined as restricted just on the basis of some relationship to the business, which is pretty weird attack of legalese on common sense. Let’s say I used some relatively simple chain of thought to derive X about my job at Z. The fact that Z uses or does X is probably confidential, and that’s ok. This would be how I understood a broad definition. But what kind of reasoning would conclude that X is confidential per se, preventing me to use or do X elsewhere, effectively making doing my job impossible? It just doesn’t make sense.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#25

Post by thedufer » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:06 PM UTC

kirubakaran wrote: post #7

It's funny how states like Washington are notorious for enforceable non-competes, to be "business friendly". Meanwhile California bans non-competes, and its GDP is 4th largest in the world if it were a country! "incumbent friendly" vs "startup friendly"

I'm not sure what conclusions you think we should draw from that. California's advantage over Washington is primarily one of size - Washington's GDP per capita is actually about 3% higher than California's. The most generous interpretation I can think of is that you're crediting the non-compete difference for California's far larger population, which is tenuous at best.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#26

Post by iLoveOncall » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:08 PM UTC

stego-tech wrote: post #21

Have an employment attorney always look over said agreements before signing. A local acquaintance who did work for an MSP had said MSP try such a ploy, only for the employment attorney to sue and get it thrown out as unreasonable and unenforceable. Never, EVER sign a contract without reading it first, and having your lawyer review it.

> your lawyer

That presupposes that people have a lawyer, and one specialized in employment law at that, which is highly unlikely to be the case for 99% of the population.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#27

Post by cyberax » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:13 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #8

throwarayes wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far it seems maybe?, but according to the article some courts and agencies are pushing back. Well the FTC was at least in 2023. California bans anything that is effectively a non compete.

Technically, maybe, but effectively, nobody is going to be able to withstand BigCorp's 100 lawyers whose mission is to bury you in legal fees if you push back. By the time that you confirm these things are unenforceable, you've spent your life savings on $millions in legal fees, and possibly gone into crippling debt. In the legal system, might (wealth + lawyer quantity) makes right.

The "bury in litigation" is overstated. Since it's the _company_ that is going to sue you, there's a limited amount of shenanigans they can do.

The worst is that they can delay the case for years, leaving you in a legal limbo. Or go after your employer, involving them in the discovery process.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#28

Post by gwbas1c » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:15 PM UTC

I once declined a job offer because the non-compete made no sense. (It was many pages, claimed that I would be paid during the non-compete period, and impossible to read.) I basically concluded that they (the company) had a lawyer that was basically wanking off.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#29

Post by secondcoming » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:15 PM UTC

A few years ago an American company that approached me (UK based) about a job opportunity insisted I sign an NDA before I could interview with them. I refused and they couldn't understand why so they even put me in contact with one of their lawyers. I still refused, and they eventually relented, but I could never understand why I'd need to sign an NDA to attend a job interview. There's literally no benefit to me in doing so.

At the time I was working for a competitor and I figured they could use the fact that I interviewed with them to argue that I - either intentionally or unintentionally - gained proprietary knowledge of their product and my current employer gained from it.

Re: Tell HN: Beware confidentiality agreements that act as lifetime non competes

#30

Post by TrackerFF » Sat, Jun 21, 2025, 7:17 PM UTC

stego-tech wrote: post #21

Have an employment attorney always look over said agreements before signing. A local acquaintance who did work for an MSP had said MSP try such a ploy, only for the employment attorney to sue and get it thrown out as unreasonable and unenforceable. Never, EVER sign a contract without reading it first, and having your lawyer review it.

I understand that your advice is in good faith - but if we touch grass for a second, only the tiniest fraction of even professional workers have a lawyer at hand. And one that specializes in contract law? Even less.