"It’s only a matter of time before robotic cars outperform their human-driven counterparts." How much time are we talking? I don't agree with this statement in anything like the near (decades) term, particularly if we are talking actual races and not timed run events.
Actually, in some aspects, we're already there! :) Computers can run a car at the limits of its traction circle much better than humans can, even with nothing more than an accelerometer. I've done some hacking around this, and it turns out that you can go about it fairly naïvely, code-wise, and do way better than even good amateur racers. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any top F1 drivers to datalog them side b…
Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
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Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#22"It’s only a matter of time before robotic cars outperform their human-driven counterparts." How much time are we talking? I don't agree with this statement in anything like the near (decades) term, particularly if we are talking actual races and not timed run events.
Actually, in some aspects, we're already there! :) Computers can run a car at the limits of its traction circle much better than humans can, even with nothing more than an accelerometer. I've done some hacking around this, and it turns out that you can go about it fairly naïvely, code-wise, and do way better than even good amateur racers. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any top F1 drivers to datalog them side b…
Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#23"It’s only a matter of time before robotic cars outperform their human-driven counterparts." How much time are we talking? I don't agree with this statement in anything like the near (decades) term, particularly if we are talking actual races and not timed run events.
Actually, in some aspects, we're already there! :) Computers can run a car at the limits of its traction circle much better than humans can, even with nothing more than an accelerometer. I've done some hacking around this, and it turns out that you can go about it fairly naïvely, code-wise, and do way better than even good amateur racers. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any top F1 drivers to datalog them side b…
The ability to reliably max out your traction circle is good, very last microsecond braking wonderful, and computers are wonderful at this micro-task. But knowing when exceeding it is ok, having a feel for where you need to be, and more than anything the planning and knowledge to max out turn exit speed velocity at all costs, these are all awfully complicated & sophisticated problems that have less to do with micro-optimizing the immediate present.
I certainly think cars will get there too. But I'd be surprised if we were really modelling the right problems at this stage. Emulating a person's sense of agency and purposefulness is, my guess would be, still a stretch. A person's ability to plan better is, my guess would be, trump enough over the micro-cheats of the machine.
It'll be interesting to see the domains where AI surpasses humans quicker. You mention the "no longer has to be a car advantage," which certainly holds true in the military drone regime, but where will in evened parity computerized elegance shine through brightest first? I tend to think something like F1, which is about extremely sharp reactions with extremely capable vehicles will lend itself to the micro-optimizations of the virtual well. What about a GT Touring race, or a club car race? Wouldn't it be a shocker if AI ends up crushing humans blithely in a stock Miata, but throw it in a GT car and it remains only human in performance? Maybe AI responsiveness and terrain estimation ends up dominating the rally circuit before the track? Mapping the domains where AI does succeed the most handily ought give the most remarkable contrast.
Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mapping down to the millimeter is great, but the conditions on track are continually changing. Weather (rain, sun, track surface temperature, air temperature), debris (dirt, grass, marbles, spectator thrown shoes), rubber being laid down on the track, changing condition of the driver's vehicle and other vehicles are all things that need to be contended with. Simulation helps, assuredly, and is used in human based eff…
That's a good point, for instance, Google's car has both on-board sensors and annotated route information. I wasn't suggesting that offline simulations be replayed, but simply that the problem space is to some extent a more perfect knowledge environment than the open road will ever be. Cheers.
Restrictor plate racing with a computer car mixed in would be extremely interesting. NASCAR does not allow telemetry, speedometers, or fuel gauges. This would make for an interesting computer car in these parameters.
Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#25Watching robots race cars would sure be boring. Reminds me of watching a computer program play Monopoly against itself.
Have you ever watched humans race cars? I would watch robots race simple courses before I'd watch people, especially if different algorithms are competing. It'd be more like watching StarCraft bots compete.
Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#26Even if we assume software that can drive in a pack of cars, and algorithms for attacking and defending, there's that drive to win that makes some drivers do things that, if we're honest, aren't fair, safe or even right. The rules are different when nobody's life is at stake.
I would love to see Formula 0. No worries about driver safety. No artificial design limits to reduce cornering speed. In fact, the only design rule I would impose is the maximum height above ground and perhaps something about no laser cannons.
Does anyone remember Rogue and then Rog-O-Matic? It would be fun to create an online competition using an existing racing simulator.
Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#27I've had many a great race there back in the day. Seeing the lap times they knocked down is quite impressive too.
Thunder Hill is probably one of the more technically challenging tracks around. There are several off-camber turns, a nasty rise where you basically have to pitch yourself over it without being able to see (pucker factor 9,000) and two straightaways with flat and very oddly-aligned turns.
The fact that this TT was able to go so quickly around it is quite awesome - this gives me hope that driverless cars won't be as boring as I fear they'll be.
Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#28I've gotten just north of 100 on Infineon. I wonder if Thunderhill has more straightaways.
What you need to knock down a quick lap there is brakes most of all. I had some monster Brembo GT's that allowed my little WRX to haul down from the triple digits and dive into the turns (paired with Tein coilovers). If you go up there you'll see how you have to cut in really fast towards the apex and then do a fairly ragged kick out the end to gain speed into the next straight.
Infineon is just a nightmare of walls imho :)
Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#29Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH
#30In actuality, the self driving vehicle should cost us no more than $5k-$7k more on top of the cost of the vehicle.