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Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

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Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#21

"It’s only a matter of time before robotic cars outperform their human-driven counterparts." How much time are we talking? I don't agree with this statement in anything like the near (decades) term, particularly if we are talking actual races and not timed run events.

Actually, in some aspects, we're already there! :) Computers can run a car at the limits of its traction circle much better than humans can, even with nothing more than an accelerometer. I've done some hacking around this, and it turns out that you can go about it fairly naïvely, code-wise, and do way better than even good amateur racers. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any top F1 drivers to datalog them side b…

Is your accelerometer-based code, or something similar, available somewhere? I'm curious as to how that works.

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#22

"It’s only a matter of time before robotic cars outperform their human-driven counterparts." How much time are we talking? I don't agree with this statement in anything like the near (decades) term, particularly if we are talking actual races and not timed run events.

Actually, in some aspects, we're already there! :) Computers can run a car at the limits of its traction circle much better than humans can, even with nothing more than an accelerometer. I've done some hacking around this, and it turns out that you can go about it fairly naïvely, code-wise, and do way better than even good amateur racers. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any top F1 drivers to datalog them side b…

The fatigue factor really makes a big difference. In go, there are 5d (99th percentile) bots now, and towards the end of an hour-long game you can really see the human flagging.

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#23

"It’s only a matter of time before robotic cars outperform their human-driven counterparts." How much time are we talking? I don't agree with this statement in anything like the near (decades) term, particularly if we are talking actual races and not timed run events.

Actually, in some aspects, we're already there! :) Computers can run a car at the limits of its traction circle much better than humans can, even with nothing more than an accelerometer. I've done some hacking around this, and it turns out that you can go about it fairly naïvely, code-wise, and do way better than even good amateur racers. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any top F1 drivers to datalog them side b…

That in racing games the ideal line is the same for all car, much less for all suspension tuning, speaks to me of how utterly simplistic our models are for the best way to throw a car around the track.

The ability to reliably max out your traction circle is good, very last microsecond braking wonderful, and computers are wonderful at this micro-task. But knowing when exceeding it is ok, having a feel for where you need to be, and more than anything the planning and knowledge to max out turn exit speed velocity at all costs, these are all awfully complicated & sophisticated problems that have less to do with micro-optimizing the immediate present.

I certainly think cars will get there too. But I'd be surprised if we were really modelling the right problems at this stage. Emulating a person's sense of agency and purposefulness is, my guess would be, still a stretch. A person's ability to plan better is, my guess would be, trump enough over the micro-cheats of the machine.

It'll be interesting to see the domains where AI surpasses humans quicker. You mention the "no longer has to be a car advantage," which certainly holds true in the military drone regime, but where will in evened parity computerized elegance shine through brightest first? I tend to think something like F1, which is about extremely sharp reactions with extremely capable vehicles will lend itself to the micro-optimizations of the virtual well. What about a GT Touring race, or a club car race? Wouldn't it be a shocker if AI ends up crushing humans blithely in a stock Miata, but throw it in a GT car and it remains only human in performance? Maybe AI responsiveness and terrain estimation ends up dominating the rally circuit before the track? Mapping the domains where AI does succeed the most handily ought give the most remarkable contrast.

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mapping down to the millimeter is great, but the conditions on track are continually changing. Weather (rain, sun, track surface temperature, air temperature), debris (dirt, grass, marbles, spectator thrown shoes), rubber being laid down on the track, changing condition of the driver's vehicle and other vehicles are all things that need to be contended with. Simulation helps, assuredly, and is used in human based eff…

That's a good point, for instance, Google's car has both on-board sensors and annotated route information. I wasn't suggesting that offline simulations be replayed, but simply that the problem space is to some extent a more perfect knowledge environment than the open road will ever be. Cheers.

Probably easier than open road, but the surface is a constant problem. NASCAR for example runs multiple races at some venues where the spring and summer races act totally different. Some of the differences are heat, rain between practice and race (rubber on track difference), different tire formula, possible resurfacing, and changes to rules (aero or engine).

Restrictor plate racing with a computer car mixed in would be extremely interesting. NASCAR does not allow telemetry, speedometers, or fuel gauges. This would make for an interesting computer car in these parameters.

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#25

Watching robots race cars would sure be boring. Reminds me of watching a computer program play Monopoly against itself.

Have you ever watched humans race cars? I would watch robots race simple courses before I'd watch people, especially if different algorithms are competing. It'd be more like watching StarCraft bots compete.

Quite a lot of the population enjoys watching people race cars. Some people like football / soccer and I cannot fathom why, but I respect their choice of entertainment. I guess everything loved has a subtly that interests fans and bores everyone else.

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#26
I agree that computers will soon (But that's just qualifying. Racing is about so much more. Driving software will have to integrate considerably more inputs in order to avoid crashing into other cars. Let's say cars have to share telemetry. Development could probably happen in parallel with other improvements but I'd still stay 3-5 years.

Even if we assume software that can drive in a pack of cars, and algorithms for attacking and defending, there's that drive to win that makes some drivers do things that, if we're honest, aren't fair, safe or even right. The rules are different when nobody's life is at stake.

I would love to see Formula 0. No worries about driver safety. No artificial design limits to reduce cornering speed. In fact, the only design rule I would impose is the maximum height above ground and perhaps something about no laser cannons.

Does anyone remember Rogue and then Rog-O-Matic? It would be fun to create an online competition using an existing racing simulator.

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#27
Ahhh, Thunder Hill.

I've had many a great race there back in the day. Seeing the lap times they knocked down is quite impressive too.

Thunder Hill is probably one of the more technically challenging tracks around. There are several off-camber turns, a nasty rise where you basically have to pitch yourself over it without being able to see (pucker factor 9,000) and two straightaways with flat and very oddly-aligned turns.

The fact that this TT was able to go so quickly around it is quite awesome - this gives me hope that driverless cars won't be as boring as I fear they'll be.

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#28
post #15

I've gotten just north of 100 on Infineon. I wonder if Thunderhill has more straightaways.

Thunder Hill has two nice long straights - you can generally top 120-140 with a decently powerful car.

What you need to knock down a quick lap there is brakes most of all. I had some monster Brembo GT's that allowed my little WRX to haul down from the triple digits and dive into the turns (paired with Tein coilovers). If you go up there you'll see how you have to cut in really fast towards the apex and then do a fairly ragged kick out the end to gain speed into the next straight.

Infineon is just a nightmare of walls imho :)

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#29
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also depends on your car. If you are looking for a straightaway for outright speed, Big Willow lets some cars get up to about 160 or so.

In this case, an R8. Infineon doesn't have much in terms of straightaways.

V8 or V10?

Re: Stanford’s Self-Driving Car Tears It Up On Racetrack – Tops 120 MPH

#30
The thing I like most about the promise of self-driving vehicles is that, when they actually get to a point of real maturity, the cost to manufacture and put that tech into a production vehicle won't be significantly greater. We're talking about plugging into the ECUs, which already take metrics for vehicle dynamics to aid with ESC and other systems, coupled with what is, in essence, computers and IR sensors. The rest is just software.

In actuality, the self driving vehicle should cost us no more than $5k-$7k more on top of the cost of the vehicle.

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