Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

allthingsd.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 94 posts

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#21

Post by terminus »

epo wrote: post #16
vibrunazo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be better for the users? Assuming the iPhone was better than what came before. Which action from incumbents would be best for users? a) Do not copy the iPhone. Make old ugly phones. (What blackberry did) Now users are stuck with old ugly phones. b) Make something different, not because it's better, but only for being different's sake. (what windows phone did) Forces users to adapt to something new instead…

Funny how the Samsung apologists have gone from saying "of course it's not a copy, they had these designs before Apple" to "what else could they do?". This defence of plagiarism as being somehow in the better interest of consumers is laughable. "intellectual property is first and foremost intended to protect users"? What have you been smoking?

> Funny how the Samsung apologists have gone from saying "of course it's not a copy, they had these designs before Apple" to "what else could they do?". This defence of plagiarism as being somehow in the better interest of consumers is laughable. "intellectual property is first and foremost intended to protect users"? What have you been smoking?

Intellectual property has always been a temporary monopoly granted to provide economic incentives to inventors/writers/what-have-you for societal advancement.

Quoting from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property#Objective...: "The stated objective of most intellectual property law (with the exception of trademarks) is to "Promote progress."[12] By exchanging limited exclusive rights for disclosure of inventions and creative works, society and the patentee/copyright owner mutually benefit, and an incentive is created for inventors and authors to create and disclose their work."

That said, I don't like your tone. Arguing, for or against a position does not make one an apologist.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#22

Post by Retric »

vibrunazo wrote: post #14
metatronscube wrote: post #2

The simple fact is that before the iphone, many 'smart' phones were complicated horrible devices (badly designed from a hardware point of view) with very poor UI/UX. Then after the iphone they were all like the iphone in some way or another. If you ask any non-technical person out there they will say the same. The iphone set the benchmark. So I can understand why apple feels like folk are just ripping them off at tim…

What would be better for the users? Assuming the iPhone was better than what came before. Which action from incumbents would be best for users? a) Do not copy the iPhone. Make old ugly phones. (What blackberry did) Now users are stuck with old ugly phones. b) Make something different, not because it's better, but only for being different's sake. (what windows phone did) Forces users to adapt to something new instead…

The problem is Samsung did not look at the iPhone and say, let's build a UI based on icons the width of a finger, swipes for navigation, and simplify as much as possible. Instead they copied non essential elements to leach off of the iPhone brand. Copying limits you to making a poor imitation of the original. But, inspiration allows you to put scroll bars on both sides of the phone, because they are non functional so why not as it might be better.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#23

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

vibrunazo wrote: post #19
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is sort of a separate question and one that is separate to the trial. The trial is asking "did Samsung copy Apple?", this question is "should that matter?" which is a question for our law makers. The side you don't talk about is what benefit accrues to someone who does great design or R&D or produces great art if it can just be immediately copied by someone who doesn't have to make the investment in time or mone…

> what benefit accrues to someone who does great design or R&D or produces great art if it can just be immediately copied by someone who doesn't have to make the investment in time or money. If you assume that everything Apple invented was trivial to copy. Then even then, Apple was still the richest company in the whole planet before having ever bothered that anyone copied them. The richest company in the whole plane…

I don't assume that at all, it's why I say a one size fits all approach makes no sense.

Different things have different costs to develop, different value, different life span, different barriers to duplication and so on. Some of the things Apple have been granted patents to they'd have done if they had no protection at all, others they may not have bothered with.

But it's easy to look at the success of the iPhone and say "it's obvious it paid off" but not all R&D leads to an iPhone and not all companies are Apple. That's like talking about running and only using Usain Bolt as an example.

I agree that we should have different IP laws for different situations but I don't think profitability or size is a good metric to use.

EDIT: I wonder (thinking out loud) whether some sort of system where you have to be willing to license all patents on something like a FRAND basis might work (not FRAND in terms of the detail but the overall principal)? No-one gets exclusivity but you do get a return. Competing companies can then work out whether they think it's worth paying the modest fee or whether to develop and alternative themselves.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#24

Post by fpgeek »

Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #11
mtgx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that happens in any industry where the rules of the game change. The competitors then have to adapt after the winning design/product if the consumers want it and they want to stay relevant. Some level of similarity should be permitted because of that, otherwise you would have either very little competition or none at all.

I don't think Apple are arguing about some similarity, I think it's the sheer level of it - the physical design, the icons, the packaging and so on. Windows Phone / Metro show that you can do these things differently, so does BlackBerry OS, so do some Android phones. When you look at the similarities between the iPhone and assorted other smartphones, they're nowhere near all being the same. It's certainly interesting…

> I don't think Apple are arguing about some similarity, I think it's the sheer level of it - the physical design, the icons, the packaging and so on.

I can see how this argument might seem plausible if Apple were only going after Samsung, but they're not.

Apple's also going after HTC (going after, among other things, the Nexus One and the HTC Flyer), Motorola (Xoom)and at least a couple of smaller tablet vendors (and it is entirely possible that there are lawsuits and/or other legal actions I've missed). It's worth nothing that that list includes the top 3 Android OEMs in the US. It's also worth noting Apple is likely avoiding suing Sony because Sony has a trove of patents they could counter-attack with.

This isn't about copying, no matter how much Apple and their apologists try to pretend that it is. This is about Apple abusing the broken patent system to damage their competition - no more, no less.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#25

Post by spartango »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #18
epo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how the Samsung apologists have gone from saying "of course it's not a copy, they had these designs before Apple" to "what else could they do?". This defence of plagiarism as being somehow in the better interest of consumers is laughable. "intellectual property is first and foremost intended to protect users"? What have you been smoking?

The U.S. constitution makes it quite clear that intellectual property exists for the benefit of citizens, to promote the advancement of useful knowledge and discoveries.

Eh, from a direct reading its not that clear:

From Article 1, Section 8: Congress shall have the Power to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

I guess it's fair to say that 'the Progress of Science' is for the benefit of citizens, but there's definitely cutouts for the benefits of inventors & authors.

I think this muddiness definitely sits near the root of current IP debates.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#26

Post by jobu »

paulsutter wrote: post #15
StavrosK wrote: post #3

From what I can see, that memo isn't anything that any company wouldn't produce internally when faced with such a strong competitor, and it doesn't imply that they wanted to outright copy the iPhone, but good luck convincing a judge of that... Also, did their lawyer fuck up by mentioning the memo? I'm not well aware of how these things work.

The memo does nothing to establish whether Samsung is infringing patents. But this is just the sort of thing that sways juries. And trials are about juries. So yes, this is how the system works. Both sides putting in enormous effort over admissibility of minor documents, outcomes swayed by minor missteps.

I think the iPhone sketch with a Sony label was far more damning to Apple than this memo is to Samsung. (http://www.phonearena.com/news/Samsung-claims-Apples-iPhone-...)

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#28

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

fpgeek wrote: post #24
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Apple are arguing about some similarity, I think it's the sheer level of it - the physical design, the icons, the packaging and so on. Windows Phone / Metro show that you can do these things differently, so does BlackBerry OS, so do some Android phones. When you look at the similarities between the iPhone and assorted other smartphones, they're nowhere near all being the same. It's certainly interesting…

> I don't think Apple are arguing about some similarity, I think it's the sheer level of it - the physical design, the icons, the packaging and so on. I can see how this argument might seem plausible if Apple were only going after Samsung, but they're not. Apple's also going after HTC (going after, among other things, the Nexus One and the HTC Flyer), Motorola (Xoom)and at least a couple of smaller tablet vendors (an…

Yes there are cases all over but the Samsung one is far wider in it's scope - you're not seeing senior execs on both sides pitching up in court anywhere else.

I'd suggest that in different cases (and indeed within the same case in some instances) both things are happening - Apple are pissed off at what seems to be outright copying and that Apple are taking advantage of the system.

But I'm dubious about any suggestion that it has to be one or the other, these things are rarely that clear cut.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#29

Post by Wohlf »

cyclinghacker wrote: post #13
podperson wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the lawyer may have fucked up, or it may be some brilliant Perry Mason-eque trap. But if the latter, why fight the memo's introduction into evidence in the first place? So I'd guess it was a mistake. Anyway, the memo by itself doesn't damn Samsung, but in context with, oh, the radius of curvature of every corner of key products being changed to exactly match Apple's devices, the color and arrangement of…

I've heard more than one person refer to their Android tablet as a "fake iPad", like it's some sort of designer handbag.

Jokes on them, the Nexus 7 is a better product IMO.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#30

Post by huggyface »

metatronscube wrote: post #2

The simple fact is that before the iphone, many 'smart' phones were complicated horrible devices (badly designed from a hardware point of view) with very poor UI/UX. Then after the iphone they were all like the iphone in some way or another. If you ask any non-technical person out there they will say the same. The iphone set the benchmark. So I can understand why apple feels like folk are just ripping them off at tim…

Before Android, the iPhone was a horribly complicated device with broken, almost useless notifications, no cloud functionality, and a need to tether off of a master PC to do anything of consequence (updates, initial setup, etc).

Every device learns from every other. I used Android above but of course it learned from WebOS among others.

Further this notion that the iPhone spurred on a lot of changes that were already happening industry wide is truly infuriating. You've seen the ridiculous "here are smartphones before the iPhone, cherry picked to find those most unlike it, and here are smartphones after the iPhone, cherry picked to find those most like it", acting as if the pivotal event was the introduction of the iPhone, external to the fact that a confluence of hardware improvements made such a form factor possible if not optimal.

The GPS industry -- which exploded before the iPhone -- pioneering and accelerated mobile screen technology, mobile touchscreens, mobile CPUs and GPUs (OpenGL ES -- the foundation of graphics on the iPhone -- was built almost purpose suited for mobile GPS devices), etc. The iPhone borrowed from that development, taking the state of screens, touchscreens and GPUs to make a better smartphone.

Everytime someone shows one of those "before the iPhone" and "after the iPhone" they scream out their ignorance. That the iPhone took advantage of the progression of technology at the right time doesn't give it ownership of the domain.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/15/tomtom-go-910-portable-gp... <- a year before the iPhone.

Post reply on HN