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IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

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Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#11
post #6

The simple fact is that before the iphone, many 'smart' phones were complicated horrible devices (badly designed from a hardware point of view) with very poor UI/UX. Then after the iphone they were all like the iphone in some way or another. If you ask any non-technical person out there they will say the same. The iphone set the benchmark. So I can understand why apple feels like folk are just ripping them off at tim…

I think that happens in any industry where the rules of the game change. The competitors then have to adapt after the winning design/product if the consumers want it and they want to stay relevant. Some level of similarity should be permitted because of that, otherwise you would have either very little competition or none at all.

I don't think Apple are arguing about some similarity, I think it's the sheer level of it - the physical design, the icons, the packaging and so on.

Windows Phone / Metro show that you can do these things differently, so does BlackBerry OS, so do some Android phones. When you look at the similarities between the iPhone and assorted other smartphones, they're nowhere near all being the same.

It's certainly interesting that (to my eyes at least) more recent phones like the S3 look a lot less like the iPhone than the S2 did and has still been massively successful.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#12
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But it's what you do when faced with this predicament that counts. Compare the approach of Samsung versus Microsoft. Samsung pretty clearly took the iPhone and decided to make their own equivalent. It's an approach they've used (with great success) when competing with Sony. Unlucky for them Apple patented their work every step of the way. Microsoft however went back to the drawing board, looked at how users wer…

This is exactly what I'm trying to say when it comes to the discussing "Samsung had to copy the iPhone cause it is the defacto standard". It is not. Nothing should be a standard. Apple didn't copy Nokia even if Nokia was the defacto standard and the bestelling phone maker. It is not okay to just copy products and earn a fortune with it. I genuinely believe that Apple invested millions of dollars into the UX of the iO…

apples whole business is based on copy and clone, why are we even having this discussion again?

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#13
post #3

From what I can see, that memo isn't anything that any company wouldn't produce internally when faced with such a strong competitor, and it doesn't imply that they wanted to outright copy the iPhone, but good luck convincing a judge of that... Also, did their lawyer fuck up by mentioning the memo? I'm not well aware of how these things work.

It seems like the lawyer may have fucked up, or it may be some brilliant Perry Mason-eque trap. But if the latter, why fight the memo's introduction into evidence in the first place? So I'd guess it was a mistake. Anyway, the memo by itself doesn't damn Samsung, but in context with, oh, the radius of curvature of every corner of key products being changed to exactly match Apple's devices, the color and arrangement of…

I've heard more than one person refer to their Android tablet as a "fake iPad", like it's some sort of designer handbag.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#14

The simple fact is that before the iphone, many 'smart' phones were complicated horrible devices (badly designed from a hardware point of view) with very poor UI/UX. Then after the iphone they were all like the iphone in some way or another. If you ask any non-technical person out there they will say the same. The iphone set the benchmark. So I can understand why apple feels like folk are just ripping them off at tim…

What would be better for the users? Assuming the iPhone was better than what came before. Which action from incumbents would be best for users?

a) Do not copy the iPhone. Make old ugly phones. (What blackberry did) Now users are stuck with old ugly phones.

b) Make something different, not because it's better, but only for being different's sake. (what windows phone did) Forces users to adapt to something new instead of using what they're already used to.

c) Embrace the innovation. Put all that's good about the iPhone in your product. Then iterate through it and improve upon it. (what samsung did) Now users have the best of both worlds, they have the brand new innovation, in a format they're used to. And taking benefit from next iterations improved from it.

It's obvious that option C is best for users. Might not be the best for the original innovators. But it's the best for consumers.

Sometimes it's easy to forget that intellectual property is first and foremost intended to protect users. Not innovators. Protecting innovators is a means to a greater end. It's the vehicle that we found that would, in theory, lead to greater products for users. But, unfortunately, often there's a conflict of interest between inventors and consumers.

As an innovator, it's in my best interest that everyone in the planet must pay their every last time to me if they ever stare at my invention, and are only allowed to improve upon it if I allow it. But as a consumer, it's in my best interest that inventions are shared and improved upon. So I can have the best of both worlds.

When there's this conflict of interests. Consumers should always take precedence. Because protecting consumers is the only good argument to back up IP in the first place. If that's not the goal, then IP is meaningless. Protecting inventors for protecting inventor's sake has no value. We do so because we believe that will lead to greater products for users.

It's very common to see a confusion between these in these discussions. Even in courts. Every time I hear "apple is being ripped off because they paid so much money into R&D" or "artists are entitled to their music, and not you". It's clear there's a disconnect between what IP should be and what you think it should be. You shouldn't care whether it's protecting the inventor, you should care whether it's protecting the user. Whenever you're in doubt, you should ask yourself if doing something will protect or hurt the user.

And in this case. It's obvious that even tho Samsung did copy a lot from Apple, they're also improving a lot on what existed before. What they're doing is not in the best interest of those they're copying from. But it's in the best interest of users. Punishing Samsung hurts consumers. That's what we should be worried about. If samsung loses this, it sets a terrible precedent for our industry. And it would be a great loss for consumers. Regardless of who copied what for which reason.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#15
post #3

From what I can see, that memo isn't anything that any company wouldn't produce internally when faced with such a strong competitor, and it doesn't imply that they wanted to outright copy the iPhone, but good luck convincing a judge of that... Also, did their lawyer fuck up by mentioning the memo? I'm not well aware of how these things work.

The memo does nothing to establish whether Samsung is infringing patents. But this is just the sort of thing that sways juries. And trials are about juries.

So yes, this is how the system works. Both sides putting in enormous effort over admissibility of minor documents, outcomes swayed by minor missteps.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#16

The simple fact is that before the iphone, many 'smart' phones were complicated horrible devices (badly designed from a hardware point of view) with very poor UI/UX. Then after the iphone they were all like the iphone in some way or another. If you ask any non-technical person out there they will say the same. The iphone set the benchmark. So I can understand why apple feels like folk are just ripping them off at tim…

What would be better for the users? Assuming the iPhone was better than what came before. Which action from incumbents would be best for users? a) Do not copy the iPhone. Make old ugly phones. (What blackberry did) Now users are stuck with old ugly phones. b) Make something different, not because it's better, but only for being different's sake. (what windows phone did) Forces users to adapt to something new instead…

Funny how the Samsung apologists have gone from saying "of course it's not a copy, they had these designs before Apple" to "what else could they do?". This defence of plagiarism as being somehow in the better interest of consumers is laughable. "intellectual property is first and foremost intended to protect users"? What have you been smoking?

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#17

The simple fact is that before the iphone, many 'smart' phones were complicated horrible devices (badly designed from a hardware point of view) with very poor UI/UX. Then after the iphone they were all like the iphone in some way or another. If you ask any non-technical person out there they will say the same. The iphone set the benchmark. So I can understand why apple feels like folk are just ripping them off at tim…

What would be better for the users? Assuming the iPhone was better than what came before. Which action from incumbents would be best for users? a) Do not copy the iPhone. Make old ugly phones. (What blackberry did) Now users are stuck with old ugly phones. b) Make something different, not because it's better, but only for being different's sake. (what windows phone did) Forces users to adapt to something new instead…

This is sort of a separate question and one that is separate to the trial.

The trial is asking "did Samsung copy Apple?", this question is "should that matter?" which is a question for our law makers.

The side you don't talk about is what benefit accrues to someone who does great design or R&D or produces great art if it can just be immediately copied by someone who doesn't have to make the investment in time or money. If that deters investment then it's not necessarily in the long term interest of the users.

Personally I'm not intrinsically anti-IP, I see some benefit, I just think the level of protection that's afforded goes on for too long and is handed out to too easily.

My feeling is that if you look at how markets develop, there is a period where there is rapid innovation followed by a period of stabilisation and standardisation. If we provided protection during the initial period (maybe three to five years) that provides incentive but may also encourage innovation as people looked to innovate themselves to compete.

Then after the market has settled down and there are clear winners and losers, the protection is moved and the standardisation you talk about can come to pass as the foundation for the next wave of changes.

But critically IP needs to be looked at on a market by market basis. Having a one size fits all system that covers drugs that need years of expensive testing, music that might be written in a few hours, software that is almost certainly redundant in a couple of years and hardware (that depending on it's nature could fall almost anywhere on the spectrum) is mad.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be better for the users? Assuming the iPhone was better than what came before. Which action from incumbents would be best for users? a) Do not copy the iPhone. Make old ugly phones. (What blackberry did) Now users are stuck with old ugly phones. b) Make something different, not because it's better, but only for being different's sake. (what windows phone did) Forces users to adapt to something new instead…

Funny how the Samsung apologists have gone from saying "of course it's not a copy, they had these designs before Apple" to "what else could they do?". This defence of plagiarism as being somehow in the better interest of consumers is laughable. "intellectual property is first and foremost intended to protect users"? What have you been smoking?

The U.S. constitution makes it quite clear that intellectual property exists for the benefit of citizens, to promote the advancement of useful knowledge and discoveries.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would be better for the users? Assuming the iPhone was better than what came before. Which action from incumbents would be best for users? a) Do not copy the iPhone. Make old ugly phones. (What blackberry did) Now users are stuck with old ugly phones. b) Make something different, not because it's better, but only for being different's sake. (what windows phone did) Forces users to adapt to something new instead…

This is sort of a separate question and one that is separate to the trial. The trial is asking "did Samsung copy Apple?", this question is "should that matter?" which is a question for our law makers. The side you don't talk about is what benefit accrues to someone who does great design or R&D or produces great art if it can just be immediately copied by someone who doesn't have to make the investment in time or mone…

> what benefit accrues to someone who does great design or R&D or produces great art if it can just be immediately copied by someone who doesn't have to make the investment in time or money.

If you assume that everything Apple invented was trivial to copy. Then even then, Apple was still the richest company in the whole planet before having ever bothered that anyone copied them. The richest company in the whole planet. It seems to me that the R&D investment already payed off, lawsuits or no lawsuits. I believe that answers your question.

It's clear from these results that Apple and competitors will invest in R&D anyway no matter if they get copied afterwards. It still pays off for them. I'm pretty sure the world won't stop inventing new things because some are being copied.

Re: IPhone caused "crisis of design" at Samsung

#20
post #8
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did not the same thing occur prior where most cellphones had terrible menu based systems? If you shake up an industry with a superior interface, and users get comfortable with it, there is no reasonable argument that continuing with an older standard would be a wise business decision.

Sure, you wouldn't want to continue with an older standard at that point, but I don't think that is the argument. If I've seen one consistent thing from Apple product design, it's that they appear to iterate continuously on the hardware and software/UI/IX components until they feel they have reached the absolute best (and before a wrong-tangent thread starts, that doesn't mean it is THE best, just Apple's opinion of…

> That was certainly not perceived as the "perfect" solution > at the time, and probably still isn't. There was room for > innovative differentiation in how user input was handled > (physical keyboard, Palm grafitti-style input, chording keyboard, something new).

I understand why this perception exists, but I do not think that it represents a fair assessment of what happened.

The first Android device after the iPhone was the HTC G1, with both a keyboard and a trackball. The first two "high-end" (IMO) Android phones were the Motorola Droid and Nexus One (one had a keyboard, the other had a trackball). There were also some Blackberry-esque designs built in the past couple of years (cf, Motorola Charm, and a couple of others). There have also been variations on hinge design and screen setups (HTC Desire Z hinge, and Kyocera Echo).

Samsung themselves have built a couple of high end Android phones with slideout keyboards for both AT&T and Sprint.

The fact that they've settled on a slate design has less to do with their attempts at differentiation than it does with providing what the market has been asking for. They've tried building the other phones, they just don't sell to as large of a demographic.

I can't imagine anyone today picking Palm graffiti-style input over Swype, for example.

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