Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

redorbit.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 51 posts

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#21

Post by jmmcd »

astrodust wrote: post #19
diminish wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could some animals have some richer emotions which we don't have? For example, some animals with Tetrachromacy can have a reacher color space than us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy

Many birds can see ultraviolet, it's fairly common since it seems to allow them to differentiate flowers the same way many insects do. Some flowers look completely different in the UV spectrum ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-473897/A-bees... ). This is why it's important that many types of pet birds have some natural daylight. As for emotions, that's a harder thing to prove. Dolphins are intelligent…

more progressive scientists

I don't really like to hear scientists described as progressive or non-progressive. I would prefer to hear that they are more or less sceptical.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#22

Post by netcan »

eshvk wrote: post #17
gph wrote: post #14

I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for sus…

> I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for s…

Thats not a very generous reading of the OP.

He is reacting to the implied (though I didn't think it was very strong) characterization of local hunters as poachers. They're hunting to eat and using (presumably) the same type of traps that they're used for generations. That fact makes gph feel some sympathy or solidarity with them and I think a lot of people agree.

I'm absolutely not a relativist. That said this is the extreme example were not looking at things relativistically at all is absurd. You're expecting people who haven't changed their lifestyle and environment in recent generations and live off the land to assign similar values to animal conservation as you do.

That is not too far from telling a remote indonesian tribeswoman to cover her breasts because she's been immorally immodest.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#24

Post by gph »

eshvk wrote: post #17
gph wrote: post #14

I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for sus…

> I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for s…

I agree with most of what you said but I'd like to add a couple follow-up comments.

>Maybe I am reading this wrong but I am getting a sense that you think Africa is filled with "noble savages" who are getting corrupted by western influences.

I wasn't trying to make that impression. I just thought that most of Rwanda is still rather undeveloped and especially after the war/genocide a lot of people there still depend on the land for subsistence. Maybe I'm wrong, I've never even been to Africa, so if I am I apologize.

>I hate to use a straw man here but I could very well use the same reasoning to argue that one shouldn't interfere in the Hutus vs Tutsi's war because tribal strife has been going on for centuries.

Well this one is tricky. I'm not trying to sound like an isolationist where we shouldn't interfere with anything. But there does seem to be something morally wrong in my mind if we interfere on behalf of nature to the detriment of the local people. Especially since we've already decimated most of our wildlife en route to our current living standards. Kind of hypocritical to then turn around and use that wealth to stop others from following in our footsteps.

Also just as an afterthought, it was my understanding that the war/genocide was largely manufactured by policies enacted by the retreating Belgians. Before we were there the two tribes got along for the most part.

>Helping people by pouring money into Africa hasn't exactly been useful. The entire clothing industry in Africa is hosed because some wise people had the bright idea of donating a ton of used clothes there. Same with the agricultural industry where local farmers can't compete with "free aid"

Yea, I know the track record on African Aid is not good. My comment was more that we should be at least thinking about their situation and empathizing with it. We should at least be understanding in our comments and behavior. But the tone in this article and likely also in the comments being sent to their facebook page makes the locals out to be the bad guy. I just don't think that's very helpful or deserved.

But to your point about giving aide, there have definitely been some mistakes made, mistakes that should probably have been avoided. It was stupid to ever assume dumping material goods or money into Africa would fix the situation. "Give a man a fish and the local fishermen are out of a job", that should be the proverb we learned from this. I don't really have great solutions other than the obvious ones: Education and stable just governance.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#25

Post by euroclydon »

sho_hn wrote: post #5
rickmode wrote: post #4

Interesting the part about non-interference: "But Vecellio said it would go against Karisoke center policies and ethos to actively instruct the apes. 'We try as much as we can to not interfere with the gorillas. We don’t want to affect their natural behavior.'" It's the Prime Directive in the 21st century.

Actually that analogy doesn't hold up all that well. In Star Trek, the Prime Directive applies to populations which have not yet invented the warp drive. Since the gorillas have already shown themselves capable of dismantling snares on their own, they've essentially demonstrated a development level that would make it OK to share "snare dismantling technology" with them. (Wohoo, Star Trek discussion! On a completely u…

TNG was solid as I recall, but I also remember thinking the last year or two of Voyager being the best of all Star Trek TV.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#26

Post by yread »

diminish wrote: post #18
astrodust wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to think animals are so different from us. They don't all have the same nuanced emotions, for instance cats seem to lack guilt, they're not nearly as wired to be social, but dogs, being pack animals have it in abundance. Even rats have empathy as proven in an experiment: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rat-empathy/ We're about 80% the same as animals when it comes down to it. The difference i…

Could some animals have some richer emotions which we don't have? For example, some animals with Tetrachromacy can have a reacher color space than us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy

Some animals can also see polarised light http://larouchepac.com/node/17209 Mantis shrimp can see the four linear and two circular polarization so the complete polarization picture. Oh and they have 12 color components. Oh and trinocular vision

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#27

Post by imgabe »

eshvk wrote: post #17
gph wrote: post #14

I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for sus…

> I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for s…

I think the point is that the traps are not intended to catch gorillas. Young gorillas sometimes get caught in them and die. It's not the fault of these people hunting bush-meat that gorillas are endangered. If it hadn't been for westerners coming over for generations and hunting gorillas to near the point of extinction, the few gorillas that accidentally get caught in these traps and die wouldn't be threatening the survival of the species. Unfortunately, that is the case, and in our efforts to undo the damage that was caused to the gorillas, we end up hurting people who are just trying to catch something to eat.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#28

Post by rimantas »

dmitriy_ko wrote: post #16
astrodust wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to think animals are so different from us. They don't all have the same nuanced emotions, for instance cats seem to lack guilt, they're not nearly as wired to be social, but dogs, being pack animals have it in abundance. Even rats have empathy as proven in an experiment: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rat-empathy/ We're about 80% the same as animals when it comes down to it. The difference i…

Exactly. We and gorillas share much more behavior than most realize. Everything from desire for friendship and love to desire for social status and achievement work pretty much EXACTLY the same. A book which made me realize this is "Sex and War: How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World". Title seems a bit unrelated to this topic, but this book basically shows that pretty much all…

  > Everything from desire for friendship and love to desire
  > for social status and achievement work pretty much
  > EXACTLY the same
And you know this how? Some gorilla told you?

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#29

Post by maxerickson »

gph wrote: post #14

I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for sus…

Normally when I think of poachers, I think of the local problem of people taking game outside the legal season. Often for trophies, often for meat. I don't get much further than thinking that they are illegally killing wild animals.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#30

Post by jbattle »

jmmcd wrote: post #21
astrodust wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many birds can see ultraviolet, it's fairly common since it seems to allow them to differentiate flowers the same way many insects do. Some flowers look completely different in the UV spectrum ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-473897/A-bees... ). This is why it's important that many types of pet birds have some natural daylight. As for emotions, that's a harder thing to prove. Dolphins are intelligent…

more progressive scientists I don't really like to hear scientists described as progressive or non-progressive. I would prefer to hear that they are more or less sceptical.

I read "progressive" as an ethical statement. Unless you can demonstrate a "scientific default" ethical system that all scientists should adhere to, this seems like valid distinction
Post reply on HN