Live data from Hacker News

Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

redorbit.com

11–20 of 51 posts

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#11
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desire to save members of your own kind is pretty universal among "social animals". Nothing particularly human about it.

I think what he meant is the "humanizing" and a bit cliché language of that article - you can't say that animals are "impassionate" about anything because you have no clue how they actually think, or what they think, or what their motivations are.

Passion = “any powerful or compelling emotion or feeling”. It’s definitely possible to witness powerful emotions in non-human animals. Nothing inherently human about it.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#12

In what can only be described as an impassioned effort to save their own kind from the hand of poachers There are ways to describe it that don't attribute human motivations to gorillas. I don't really believe this is a reputable source. This is a bit more reliable: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120719-young...

I agree, but the problem I think others are having is your use of the word "human". You really mean a subset of humans: the issue isn't so much that the gorillas are exhibiting human-like behavior but that the article writer is ascribing non-universal motivations to their behavior.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#13

In what can only be described as an impassioned effort to save their own kind from the hand of poachers There are ways to describe it that don't attribute human motivations to gorillas. I don't really believe this is a reputable source. This is a bit more reliable: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120719-young...

It's a mistake to think animals are so different from us. They don't all have the same nuanced emotions, for instance cats seem to lack guilt, they're not nearly as wired to be social, but dogs, being pack animals have it in abundance.

Even rats have empathy as proven in an experiment: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rat-empathy/

We're about 80% the same as animals when it comes down to it. The difference is important, absolutely, but not as significant as you'd think.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#14
I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for sustenance. And really it's rather disingenuous to call the people setting these traps "poachers". Normally when you think of poachers you think of thuggish killers only in it for a profit. But even in this article, which to me appears quite biased, they admit that the traps are set by local bush-meat hunters. What they do might technically be illegal (though those laws likely only exist because of Western pressure), but to them it's just a way of life. I know Diane Fossey had trouble with the locals when she first showed up and started dismantling traps. I seem to remember from an Adam Curtis documentary that they even killed a couple gorillas just to spite her. But I don't think they have a complete disregard for the natural world that surrounds them. They just hold their own survival/advancement in higher regard. And who are we to really judge that, given that most Western affluence came at the expense of vast ecological destruction.

And imagine what it must be like for these people to see some foreigners come in and spend tons of money and energy on saving gorillas and basically treat you as the enemy. I'd probably be thinking, why the hell aren't they helping me instead, is my life worth less than a gorillas to them?

I don't have any great answers to all this. Like everything there is a lot of gray area to this story. But hopefully while we cheer on the survival of the gorillas, we should also spare a thought for the survival of the local humans as well. This article certainly didn't. In fact it pretty much cast them as the villains who were heroically thwarted by a couple brave young gorillas.

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what he meant is the "humanizing" and a bit cliché language of that article - you can't say that animals are "impassionate" about anything because you have no clue how they actually think, or what they think, or what their motivations are.

Indeed, but they cry and mourn like humans... Do you really know what your fellow humans think and what their motivations are? The thing that separates us is structured language. I tend to trust the display of emotions more than a long discourse. I'd also like to point that in the case of great apes and some other mammalians, the brain structure is not very different than a human brain. We can reasonably expect that…

[deleted]

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#16

In what can only be described as an impassioned effort to save their own kind from the hand of poachers There are ways to describe it that don't attribute human motivations to gorillas. I don't really believe this is a reputable source. This is a bit more reliable: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120719-young...

It's a mistake to think animals are so different from us. They don't all have the same nuanced emotions, for instance cats seem to lack guilt, they're not nearly as wired to be social, but dogs, being pack animals have it in abundance. Even rats have empathy as proven in an experiment: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rat-empathy/ We're about 80% the same as animals when it comes down to it. The difference i…

Exactly. We and gorillas share much more behavior than most realize. Everything from desire for friendship and love to desire for social status and achievement work pretty much EXACTLY the same. A book which made me realize this is "Sex and War: How Biology Explains Warfare and Terrorism and Offers a Path to a Safer World". Title seems a bit unrelated to this topic, but this book basically shows that pretty much all our motivations are inherited from our great ape ancestors (and are shared by chimps – out closest living specie in terms of behavior).

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#17
post #14

I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for sus…

> I can't help but read this with a pinch of salt. Yes, it's fascinating that these gorillas have learned this new behavior and are passing it down. And I think almost everyone wants to see endangered species protected. Yet I can't help but feel there is something quite pretentious about all this. We sit here cheering on the destruction of these traps, when in all likely-hood there are people who depend on them for sustenance. And really it's rather disingenuous to call the people setting these traps "poachers". Normally when you think of poachers you think of thuggish killers only in it for a profit. But even in this article, which to me appears quite biased, they admit that the traps are set by local bush-meat hunters. What they do might technically be illegal (though those laws likely only exist because of Western pressure), but to them it's just a way of life. I know Diane Fossey had trouble with the locals when she first showed up and started dismantling traps. I seem to remember from an Adam Curtis documentary that they even killed a couple gorillas just to spite her. But I don't think they have a complete disregard for the natural world that surrounds them. They just hold their own survival/advancement in higher regard. And who are we to really judge that, given that most Western affluence came at the expense of vast ecological destruction.

Maybe I am reading this wrong but I am getting a sense that you think Africa is filled with "noble savages" who are getting corrupted by western influences. Having grown up in Africa, let me hasten to assure you that there are enough Africans who care a lot about making sure that their beautiful flora and fauna is protected for future generations. Simultaneously it is Human nature that there will be people who either out of desperation or malice wish to kill and plunder wildlife. I don't buy the way of life argument when one gets to use sophisticated weaponry (guns may or may not be used in this case but there are enough cases where guns are used to wipe out wildlife) to plunder the wealth of the country. I hate to use a straw man here but I could very well use the same reasoning to argue that one shouldn't interfere in the Hutus vs Tutsi's war because tribal strife has been going on for centuries.

> And imagine what it must be like for these people to see some foreigners come in and spend tons of money and energy on saving gorillas and basically treat you as the enemy. I'd probably be thinking, why the hell aren't they helping me instead, is my life worth less than a gorillas to them?

> But hopefully while we cheer on the survival of the gorillas, we should also spare a thought for the survival of the local humans as well. This article certainly didn't. In fact it pretty much cast them as the villains who were heroically thwarted by a couple brave young gorillas.

You are arguing a false dichotomy here. Helping people by pouring money into Africa hasn't exactly been useful. The entire clothing industry in Africa is hosed because some wise people had the bright idea of donating a ton of used clothes there. Same with the agricultural industry where local farmers can't compete with "free aid".

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#18

In what can only be described as an impassioned effort to save their own kind from the hand of poachers There are ways to describe it that don't attribute human motivations to gorillas. I don't really believe this is a reputable source. This is a bit more reliable: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120719-young...

It's a mistake to think animals are so different from us. They don't all have the same nuanced emotions, for instance cats seem to lack guilt, they're not nearly as wired to be social, but dogs, being pack animals have it in abundance. Even rats have empathy as proven in an experiment: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rat-empathy/ We're about 80% the same as animals when it comes down to it. The difference i…

Could some animals have some richer emotions which we don't have? For example, some animals with Tetrachromacy can have a reacher color space than us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mistake to think animals are so different from us. They don't all have the same nuanced emotions, for instance cats seem to lack guilt, they're not nearly as wired to be social, but dogs, being pack animals have it in abundance. Even rats have empathy as proven in an experiment: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rat-empathy/ We're about 80% the same as animals when it comes down to it. The difference i…

Could some animals have some richer emotions which we don't have? For example, some animals with Tetrachromacy can have a reacher color space than us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy

Many birds can see ultraviolet, it's fairly common since it seems to allow them to differentiate flowers the same way many insects do. Some flowers look completely different in the UV spectrum (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-473897/A-bees...). This is why it's important that many types of pet birds have some natural daylight.

As for emotions, that's a harder thing to prove. Dolphins are intelligent enough they should be classified as sentient non-human persons according to more progressive scientists. They have the richest range of emotions we've seen outside of chimpanzees, and to be honest, chimpanzees are so very nearly human it's quite amazing. They don't seem to lack any faculties that humans have, but some of their emotions are just less pronounced or developed.

Sometimes it seems the only reason that chimpanzees aren't affected more emotionally is that they don't understand the implications of what's happening. It's just ignorance more than a lack of emotion.

What might exist in the way of emotions humans don't have is things that are bio-chemical. Nature has a way of "rewarding" behaviors that are productive with a positive feeling. Do cuttlefish feel something other than love when doing their dances? What does an octopus, which has a nervous system entirely unlike a mammal or fish, feel when going about their day?

Re: Young Gorillas Observed Dismantling Poacher Snares

#20

In what can only be described as an impassioned effort to save their own kind from the hand of poachers There are ways to describe it that don't attribute human motivations to gorillas. I don't really believe this is a reputable source. This is a bit more reliable: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/07/120719-young...

It's a mistake to think animals are so different from us. They don't all have the same nuanced emotions, for instance cats seem to lack guilt, they're not nearly as wired to be social, but dogs, being pack animals have it in abundance. Even rats have empathy as proven in an experiment: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/12/rat-empathy/ We're about 80% the same as animals when it comes down to it. The difference i…

"cats seem to lack guilt, they're not nearly as wired to be social"

Our Burmese cats actually do seem to be a bit guilty after they do something bad, also they are very social. Having said that, Burmese cats do have a reputation for being amongst the most dog-like of cat breeds.

Post reply on HN