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There is no talent shortage

apaitch.com

21–30 of 106 posts

Re: There is no talent shortage

#21
Norman has skill, Jon could've had skill, so there is no talent shortage. Is the article saying because a lot of people COULD'VE had skill that there is no talent shortage, and then pedantically renames it? It's clever, but talent shortage or luck shortage or whatever you call it, companies need sufficient programmers and there aren't enough to go around.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#22
post #13

It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I…

It certainly helps to already have X skill. There may be some positions where that's a non-negotiable requirement. For most, you only need to show some experience with something related to X skill, and a willingness to learn quickly. The barrier to entry for programming is very low. Anyone can get started and build things. They can put their code up on github and start displaying what they've learned. They need to ke…

It's totally understandable for a 10-man startup to not want to take in a relative newbie and have him/her drag down the team's productivity when they've got to ship in a month. However, for bigger companies (not necessarily giants like Google either) it may well be worth it to invest in a number of somewhat less experienced employees and grow them internally. The only problem, I suppose, would be selecting the right people.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#23
post #19
post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

Exactly. The "talent shortage" is a lack of employable programmers period , not just a lack of exceptional programmers. And this is easy to see: everybody I know in my class (also Berkeley, coincidentally) has managed to get an internship or full time job without much effort. This includes both people with and without experience before college. I managed to get a couple of interesting offers despite never sending my…

From the outside looking in, it certainly doesn't seem like everyone is eager to snatch up mediocre graduates. I can't say I've done much research on the subject or crunched numbers, but I noticed two things: 1) Complaints about "talent shortages" from top companies and startups in the Valley and otherwise. 2) Companies evaluating people based on experience, GitHub profiles, open source contributions, etc.

Not that it's wrong to evaluate based on that criteria. However, for people like the hypothetical John it's quite hard to keep up with a good CS program and manage to do impressive things on the side. So you end up with people with strong potential, much of it not yet actualized, who spend the first years of their careers in a job of questionable usefulness (excel macros?). I think there are more of those people than commonly assumed, and I do think they can contribute well in much better places. They may be slow at first, but give them 6 months and they will be strong members of the team. Granted, a startup may not have 6 months to give, but once you've got some resources under your belt a green-but-talented engineer can be a great investment.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#24
post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

I didn't mean to get into the debate between natural talent and skills acquired by work - probably should've cut the "natural" part out of the definition to make that clear. I was thinking of the "potentiality" aspect of talent. I agree that employers want capable employees - preferably able to contribute from day one. I think investing in employees who have the potential to be great contributors but are not quite there yet is worthwhile, and is something that's under-emphasized in most recruitment strategies. To me, "talent" is when a master finds an apprentice he knows could be great with the right guidance. The job market demands masters (dubbed "talent"), but few are willing to help create masters by actualizing the potential of those who are less experienced.

Note: I'm not talking about on-the-job training from someone who doesn't know what a computer is to a master programmer. I'm talking about allowing people who are less immediately capable into the workplace and mentoring/growing them into strong contributors.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#25
This is my situation - I only really found out I loved code in University, and only worked out what I really need to do to do that kind of work I want to do since entering employment. I'm still relatively young (24) but even I feel this experience gap in talking to potential employers.

That said I'm now actively building a portfolio by working nights on real products and leveraging what experience I do have as heavily as I can. I also try to present how quickly I picked up the skills I do have in things like Ruby, coffee/node and all that 'sexy' stuff to show that I can pick up anything anyone throws at me really quickly.

Hopefully by the end of the year I'll be where I want to be.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#26
post #19
post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

Exactly. The "talent shortage" is a lack of employable programmers period , not just a lack of exceptional programmers. And this is easy to see: everybody I know in my class (also Berkeley, coincidentally) has managed to get an internship or full time job without much effort. This includes both people with and without experience before college. I managed to get a couple of interesting offers despite never sending my…

You went to Berkeley. You get a somewhat different response from PR than someone like myself, who went to a crappy liberal arts school with no name in PA. They recognize the school, and expect that to be a substitute for skill - "oh he went to Ivy League / big state school, he must be a genius". Versus "I have never heard of that place, must be dumb not to go to an Ivy League".

Anecdote: I like to think I can write fizzbuzz in a couple languages.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#27
Talent at any company can be divided in to following categories: a. People who make code* frameworks b. People who extend code frameworks c. People who maintain code frameworks

* you can replace code with almost any other employable skill

"Talent shortage" usually refers to people who fall in a).

Every company claims to want to hire only a) but most companies need b) or c). Very early stage startups ideally need a), but they don't always manage to hire people in that category. They can temporarily bypass this requirement by hiring people in b) and using frameworks like (Rails, Django, etc) built by other people who fall in a) until they get to a point where a) types will be willing to join.

When people talk about shortage of talent, they usually mean shortage of a) people. This is mostly because two of the three things that people in b) and c) need to become a) are hard to acquire and come with 'experience'(for those who try).

3 things you need to become a):

1. Acquiring a good base - data structures, algorithms, design patterns etc - learning languages/specific skills - interview skills

2. Acquiring good mental models - working with smart programmers - reading code by smart programmers - learning to make tradeoffs - actually building stuff

3. Acquiring reputation - Building stuff - Talking about stuff you build - Having other people talk about you - Collecting badges that other people recognize i.e. working at well known startups/companies, winning programming competitions, going to Berkeley, etc.

Most people manage to succeed in 1) eventually. 1) is also where most college/other training programs focus. But, 2) and 3) are much harder to acquire.

If a company is big enough they will assign an a) to mentor someone who is a b) or c), but this is often not viable for startups (and, imho, slightly unreasonable to expect from a lot of startups).

If we figure out a way for b) and c) people to learn 2), we can solve a lot of the talent shortage. But, this requires either a b) or c) person to spend time on their own looking at work by a) people (not always possible and extremely time consuming), or an a) person mentoring the b)/c) person outside companies (100x faster, imho).

Until we build social systems that enable b) and c) to transition to a) easily, the alarms for 'talent shortage' will continue to ring.

Caveats: 1. A lot of jobs only need b) or c). Employers could adjust expectations. 2. Luck is a huge factor. You don't actually have to be a) to be hired or considered a) because perception(3) plays a big role.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#28
post #19
post #10

This article is playing word-games. When employers and economists talk about talent, they mean capability, regardless of whether it's natural or comes from hard work. Your dictionary may say "natural aptitude or skill", but that's irrelevant to the job market.

Exactly. The "talent shortage" is a lack of employable programmers period , not just a lack of exceptional programmers. And this is easy to see: everybody I know in my class (also Berkeley, coincidentally) has managed to get an internship or full time job without much effort. This includes both people with and without experience before college. I managed to get a couple of interesting offers despite never sending my…

Tikhon, It took me two weeks and now I'm doing contracting to hire for a YC company. (I had help)

However I ran into a bunch companies that did not know how to hire and I also found that the more successful the company was the better they were at the process, defiantly a correlation there.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#29
post #13

It is a weird market. I've been job searching pretty hard for the past month in SF and the response has been a bit frustrating. I get tons of people reaching out to me after meeting me at tech meetups, etc, but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview! From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions. I…

"but I'd say over half of those leads end up cutting me at an HR filter before I can even get an interview!

"From what I understand it's due to two things-- at 34, I'm older than others going for junior positions."

I hope any HR people who have had your resume cross their desk are sweating at the thought of age discrimination scrutiny.

It may be there's a shortage of HR talent, not tech talent.

Re: There is no talent shortage

#30

"John only started programming in college. He has 3 years of “experience” – much of it spent working on school assignments, not projects – and Norman has 10. John’s not as experienced or capable, but he may well be just as talented as Norman. Norman will get snapped up by a top company and snowball into a “rockstar” developer, whereas John will start (and maybe spend) his programming career in relative obscurity." I'…

Building software is not like installing carpet. You don't just do it for a couple years and become a skilled worker. Its obvious that many misinformed people think that software development is a blue collar job that people go to vo-tech school to learn to do while rebuilding car alternators. This way of thinking comes about because most people's experience with development is usually within a very, very small microcosm. There are people out there that did some VB work fifteen years ago who think that once a developer has ramped up on basic VB programming, they now meet the industry bar for software design and engineering.

Is a physicist just as valuable after a few years of doing research as a full tenured professor with 30 years of research? After a few years of full-time professional development work John will be talented at working with a very, very limited set of tools that his company uses and developed the ability to solve a very small set of problems. This means he is perhaps as valuable as Norman to one single company and almost not valuable at all to most other companies.

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