Live data from Hacker News

Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

quantamagazine.org

21–29 of 29 posts

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#21

This is something I wondered about the idea of life beginning in the oceans and spreading to dry land. If approximately 70 percent of the total number of microbes on the planet live underground today (number I googled) wouldn't it make more sense that life began underground and slowly spread to the surface? Is this a theory anywhere?

Yes this is definitely a theory already. The volcanic vents under the ocean particularly seem promising. I'm nowhere near qualified to even try to explain it without making certain errors, so I don't want to even try, rather I'll recommend someone who is qualified (and good at teaching). If you're interested in this stuff, I can highly recommend Robert M. Hazen. He has an amazing Great Course called "The Origin and E…

If you're interested in the origins and future of humanity, I'd recommend Isaac Arthur's YouTube channel as a complementary source as well.

https://www.youtube.com/@isaacarthurSFIA

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#22
post #19

Very cool research. On the topic of hydrogen deep underground: I'm not an expert, just a fascinated amateur, but I've been fascinated by the recent discovery that there is enormous amounts of hydrogen below the earth. In fact, this article mentions hydrogen forming by serpentinization, and says that the researchers were shocked to find so much hydrogen. Recent research indicates that hydrogen may exist deep in the ea…

Let’s hope we don’t find and extract so much subterranean hydrogen that we burn it into water and cause sea level rise.

Don’t forget that oxygen is useful for breathing too. Semi-important, I hear.

ChatGPT estimates that if we converted all of earth’s atmospheric oxygen into water (via burning with hydrogen), ocean levels would rise about 3.7 meters: https://chat.openai.com/share/c9c8ce51-6070-49b6-a092-86e4a4...

I don’t have time to check this math, so take it with a substantial grain of salt.

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is definitely a theory already. The volcanic vents under the ocean particularly seem promising. I'm nowhere near qualified to even try to explain it without making certain errors, so I don't want to even try, rather I'll recommend someone who is qualified (and good at teaching). If you're interested in this stuff, I can highly recommend Robert M. Hazen. He has an amazing Great Course called "The Origin and E…

If you're interested in the origins and future of humanity, I'd recommend Isaac Arthur's YouTube channel as a complementary source as well. https://www.youtube.com/@isaacarthurSFIA

Thanks, I'll check that out also!

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#24

This is something I wondered about the idea of life beginning in the oceans and spreading to dry land. If approximately 70 percent of the total number of microbes on the planet live underground today (number I googled) wouldn't it make more sense that life began underground and slowly spread to the surface? Is this a theory anywhere?

The essential ingredient for the origin of life is a source of energy. The use of solar energy did not become possible until at least a few hundred million years after the appearance of life, perhaps only after more than a billion years, because the trans-membrane ionic pumps powered by solar light are extremely complex structures that could not have been created out of non-living substances. The only known energy so…

> The only known energy source that can cause the appearance of life is the reaction between dihydrogen (elemental hydrogen) and carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide.

What do you mean by “the appearance of life”? These elements couldn’t make even a single amino acid, so I’m not sure I follow how these molecules could lead to the appearance of life.

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#25
post #19

Very cool research. On the topic of hydrogen deep underground: I'm not an expert, just a fascinated amateur, but I've been fascinated by the recent discovery that there is enormous amounts of hydrogen below the earth. In fact, this article mentions hydrogen forming by serpentinization, and says that the researchers were shocked to find so much hydrogen. Recent research indicates that hydrogen may exist deep in the ea…

Let’s hope we don’t find and extract so much subterranean hydrogen that we burn it into water and cause sea level rise.

It will probably increase the concentration of water vapor in the atmosphere, which will lead to further warming as water vapor absorbs the heat radiated by Earth.

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is definitely a theory already. The volcanic vents under the ocean particularly seem promising. I'm nowhere near qualified to even try to explain it without making certain errors, so I don't want to even try, rather I'll recommend someone who is qualified (and good at teaching). If you're interested in this stuff, I can highly recommend Robert M. Hazen. He has an amazing Great Course called "The Origin and E…

If you're interested in the origins and future of humanity, I'd recommend Isaac Arthur's YouTube channel as a complementary source as well. https://www.youtube.com/@isaacarthurSFIA

Isaac Arthur is an engineer, so not exactly an expert on biology or anthropology. He does to a lot of futurology, but thats unrelated to the origins of life on earth and any speculation he does there is just that.

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're interested in the origins and future of humanity, I'd recommend Isaac Arthur's YouTube channel as a complementary source as well. https://www.youtube.com/@isaacarthurSFIA

Isaac Arthur is an engineer, so not exactly an expert on biology or anthropology. He does to a lot of futurology, but thats unrelated to the origins of life on earth and any speculation he does there is just that.

As a former astrobiologist, I respectfully disagree. The future and past are intimately related, and our planet's future may be examined through other planets' pasts (e.g. Venus). Other than genetics, we have zero evidence about life 3.5 billion years ago, so everything is speculation, and an engineer can do that as well as a biologist.

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#28

This is something I wondered about the idea of life beginning in the oceans and spreading to dry land. If approximately 70 percent of the total number of microbes on the planet live underground today (number I googled) wouldn't it make more sense that life began underground and slowly spread to the surface? Is this a theory anywhere?

I favor the idea that a planet with a moon in a slightly eccentric orbit (earth) you have oceans washing minerals over every grain of sand on every beach, depositing then washing away different concentrations of everything, wetting and drying and applying sunlight and shade, warming and cooling. A billion billion petri dishes over a billion years. Eventually bingo! organic molecules then life.

over a billion years

The crazy thing is... it was maybe half that maybe even less. The earth is ~4.5 billion years old. There is perhaps-evidence of microbial life could be ~4.1 billion years old. More certainly, at ~3.7 billion.

The earth is life and life is earth.

Re: Deep beneath earth's surface, clues to life's origins

#29
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The essential ingredient for the origin of life is a source of energy. The use of solar energy did not become possible until at least a few hundred million years after the appearance of life, perhaps only after more than a billion years, because the trans-membrane ionic pumps powered by solar light are extremely complex structures that could not have been created out of non-living substances. The only known energy so…

> The only known energy source that can cause the appearance of life is the reaction between dihydrogen (elemental hydrogen) and carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide. What do you mean by “the appearance of life”? These elements couldn’t make even a single amino acid, so I’m not sure I follow how these molecules could lead to the appearance of life.

In the presence of catalysts such as metallic sulfides, these produce complex hydrocarbons, and together with ammonia also the 10 primordial amino-acids that are abundant in abiotic environments.

All the complex organic molecules require energy for their production and only elemental hydrogen (reacting with the abundant carbon dioxide) or the less abundant carbon monoxide (reacting with the abundant water) can provide that in the absence of living beings.

The original source of energy that produces the free elemental hydrogen is the internal heat of the planet, which creates underground minerals that are stable at high temperatures, but unstable at low temperatures, so when they are exposed by volcanic processes to the water at the surface they are oxidized by the water, so they release the dihydrogen from water.

Since life cannot have existed from the Big Bang, it must obviously have appeared at some point in time after the formation of the planets.

It cannot have appeared in any place that does not provide the energy required for the synthesis of organic molecules, so the place where life has appeared must have included a source of dihydrogen (and carbon dioxide, but this is ubiquitous). Additional requirements are the presence of sulfides of iron, cobalt and nickel, which are necessary as catalysts, and also of water, ammonia and potassium ions (the latter are required to neutralize the organic acids that form much of the living matter; all the cells of all living beings are filled with potassium ions for this purpose). All these conditions are encountered in submarine alkaline vents or volcanic vents.

Wherever there exists air dissolved in the water, including at great depths in the ocean or underground, the bacteria and any other living beings obtain energy by the easier path of using dioxygen (elemental oxygen from the air) to oxidize either organic substances or inorganic substances, like elemental hydrogen or hydrogen sulfide. All such living beings, even if they live in the dark, depend on the solar energy captured by algae and plants, which have produced the free elemental oxygen.

At higher depths underground or in the marine sediments, where there is no longer enough air dissolved in the water, there are only bacteria that can use the energy of the reaction between dihydrogen and carbon dioxide. In some places where there is no air there are also sulfate-reducing bacteria, which use sulfate instead of carbon dioxide, but those are also indirectly dependent on photosynthesis, because the sulfate comes from other bacteria which live where there is air and which create the sulfate by oxidizing reduced sulfur compounds with oxygen from the air.

Post reply on HN