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Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

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Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#21

Post by __derek__ »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #16
__derek__ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? Indonesia and Malaysia, for two.

Indonesia is not an Islamic nation even though a majority of its population is Islamic and there is some influence of Islam in their politics. Malaysia is, as you stated, an Islamic nation. It is not secular, however, as they consider Islam to be their official religion.

Indonesia is not an Islamic state, but it is an Islamic nation. These are different. Malaysia's constitution guarantees freedom of religion, making the state secular despite the official religion.

FWIW, the structure of your reply implies that "secular islamic nation" is a contradiction in terms. Maybe that was intentional, but if so it works better as a reply to GP.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#22

Post by __derek__ »

blhblah12345 wrote: post #15
__derek__ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? Indonesia and Malaysia, for two.

[flagged]

If you can go much further, that would be appreciated because this comment was not substantive or constructive.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#23

Post by NikolaNovak »

blhblah12345 wrote: post #10
za3faran wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The things that keep the west alive are abstract, unfathomable concepts to the Ummah. As a Muslim, this is so incorrect to the point of almost absurdity. Just because you have encountered one person who appeared to you that he did not understand or comprehend a certain topic you were explaining, does not mean that the rest of the Muslims are the same. I can point you to many many youtube channels (just as an exampl…

"One person" Like I said I've been in the islamic world for a decade. I've studied Arabic/Turkish music in Iran, Egypt, Turkiye, Azerbaijan, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel. It's not like "I met one muslim". I have spent about 20 hours per week for the past decade teaching Syrian and Yemeni refugees in Istanbul and Ankara. Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? As far as I can tell this only ex…

I get your point but isn't there a built-in inconsistency in term "Islamic secular state"? I. E. Would a secular state by definition not be Islamic (or Christian etc)? Or do you mean a state with predominantly Islamic population that is democratic and secular?

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#24

Post by nawwal »

IAmGraydon wrote: post #16
__derek__ wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? Indonesia and Malaysia, for two.

Indonesia is not an Islamic nation even though a majority of its population is Islamic and there is some influence of Islam in their politics. Malaysia is, as you stated, an Islamic nation. It is not secular, however, as they consider Islam to be their official religion.

By this logic such a nation does not exist, as you can’t be both Islamic and secular at the same time. You can say the same about Turkey as Indonesia, it’s a secular nation even though the majority of its population is Muslim. I think the OP comment meant to ask about a secular democracy in a country where most people are Muslim. And in that case Turkey could be an example, even though Erdogan is fairly dictator-ish, we’ll see how their elections go this year

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#25

Post by NikolaNovak »

akolbe wrote: post #11
blhblah12345 wrote: post #4

[flagged]

You're right, in a way, to call it brainwashing. But seen from another perspective, people living under authoritarian regimes simply think practically. They are aware of the acute danger to themselves and their families – all the more so as they can't just up sticks and go to live in San Francisco if they don't like it any more. The freedom of speech that only exists elsewhere might just as well not exist, and they'r…

When I was a kid, and pestering e.g. My dad where was mom (who might be shopping or in Washroom or whatever :), sometimes in exasperation he'd reply "she in California". It was the functional equivalent of dark side of moon, or even Narnia - place you've heard of but might well not exist.

20 years later, in Canada, my job sent me to California for training. When I heard, surprisingly to myself, I hyperventilated and got an asthma attack - my adult Canadian self and the 6 year old from somewhere else colliding in their expectations and worldview reality.

Which is to say that I think you have a profound point in that somebody may be "aware" on intellectual level of different places, cultures, laws etc; and it still not feel very real or be at all relevant on practical level.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#27

Post by thinking4real »

rayiner wrote: post #9
blhblah12345 wrote: post #4

[flagged]

> His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state…

It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had.

Hubris abound.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#28

Post by pydry »

rockinghigh wrote: post #14
blhblah12345 wrote: post #4

[flagged]

It sounds like you're generalizing from a couple of conversations. The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms. The idea that citizens in Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria are "intellectually incapable of understanding" the idea of freedom of speech is insulting.

>The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms.

I'm not sure they were. They kicked off when food prices spiked, and proximate causes were corruption and unemployment.

Officially endorsed foreign protests against government we don't particularly like are always described as being about freedom in the west for reasons that aren't always good.

>The idea that citizens in Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria are "intellectually incapable of understanding" the idea of freedom of speech is insulting.

Yes, absolutely it is.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#29

Post by tboyd47 »

blhblah12345 wrote: post #4

[flagged]

Islam brought the concept of "inalienable rights" to the West. The West still doesn't get it because in their system, emergency powers override every "inalienable right" the Westerners think they are entitled to.

Re: Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

#30

Post by blhblah12345 »

__derek__ wrote: post #22
blhblah12345 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you can go much further, that would be appreciated because this comment was not substantive or constructive.

How was this not substantive?

I gave you a very solid example of how in one large province of Indonesia, democracy and the rule of law were entirely removed and put in the hand of islamic "leaders".

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