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The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

cluetrain.com

21–30 of 43 posts

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#21
post #11

Many comments here lament that adtech won, and that corporate speak is still the norm. All true, but many of the more “structural” premises have held, and we just don’t see them because they’re the norm now. People are much more empowered to know the truth: Amazon reviews, restaurant reviews etc. Yes they can be manipulated, and yes counterfeit products can make their way into the supply chain, but we are forgetting…

You have no evidence for any of the things that you say. The credit that you are trying to give to Glassdoor is especially artificial. Large scale economic forces, such as the crisis of 2008, have had a much larger effect than Glassdoor. You could try to make the argument "Without Glassdoor, things would be even worse" but so far you have not made that argument. As a counter-point, we should simply acknowledge that unpaid internships used to be illegal, then they became legal, and after 2008 they became common. Likewise, American workers once worked in offices, then in cubicles, and now in open air rooms where they have to wear sound canceling headphones because the noise makes it difficult for anyone to think. Over the last 50 years labor unions died out, and the protections they offered the American workers also died out. And of course, wages stagnated. You can try to make the case that companies treat their workers better, but it will be difficult to suggest that Glassdoor made everything better -- there were some powerful forces making things worse.

As to Yelp, I don't recall the era before Yelp as an era of going to bad restaurants. For informal restaurants, we'd go to wherever friends had been, if the friends said they'd had a good experience. And for fancier restaurants, those were reviewed in the newspapers. Or if you lived in a college town, then every restaurant, even the informal ones, would get a review in the weekly. Like, for instance, in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, where the Independent would post a review of every restaurant, both the informal and the formal.

I think an honest appraisal of the Internet would have to look hard at its failure to live up to its promise, and why that happened. For most of the 20th Century it was assumed that if knowledge could become universal, then economic growth would increase, and yet the opposite has happened. The years since 2000 have seen below average economic growth and below average productivity growth. Figuring out why economic growth faltered when information was becoming abundant has to be one of the big questions that economics needs to answer.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#22
post #11

Many comments here lament that adtech won, and that corporate speak is still the norm. All true, but many of the more “structural” premises have held, and we just don’t see them because they’re the norm now. People are much more empowered to know the truth: Amazon reviews, restaurant reviews etc. Yes they can be manipulated, and yes counterfeit products can make their way into the supply chain, but we are forgetting…

> People are much more empowered to know the truth: Amazon reviews, restaurant reviews etc. Yes they can be manipulated, and yes counterfeit products can make their way into the supply chain, but we are forgetting that before the internet the lack of scaled reviews meant many more bad meals at restaurants. I think the problem is worse that you state. For instance, IIRC pretty much all the sites in the "independent" o…

Reddit seems less astroturfed. It's a serious source of reviews.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#23
post #15

It’s a shame this never caught on. I still think it’s a preferable way to communicate with your customers. Instead all the corporations doubled down on treating us like idiots. Maybe someday.

When JC Penney decided to lower prices across the board and eliminate doorbuster sales, coupons and other manipulative tactics, their revenue dropped to the point that their CEO was fired. Let's not forget about A&W and their famous 1/3 pounder debacle. Unfortunately, treating customers like intelligent human beings is currently not a scalable business tactic. > Maybe someday I think we'll always get what we deserve.…

yes but .. no. This point of view does not address market segments, market demographics, expected and taken profit margin.. tellingly, even fails to distinguish between commodity markets, regulated markets and others.. This oversimplification becomes dangerous oversimplification when it stultifies intelligent conversation among peers. Never say "never"

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#24

Blast from the past. My first experiences of the web were in the mid-late 1990s, and I remember this being so cool at the time. Reading it today makes me sad in so many ways. > Whether delivering information, opinions, perspectives, dissenting arguments or humorous asides, the human voice is typically open, natural, uncontrived. Instagram does not strike me as "open, natural, uncontrived". Nor does any other social m…

This is a quality comment.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#25

The Cluetrain Manifesto is painful to read and suffers from inflated prose rather that speak plainly to the reader. Tech columnist John C Dvorak disliked The Cluetrain Manifesto and wrote a very entertaining book review in PC Magazine from 2002: Cult of the Cluetrain Manifesto : https://www.pcmag.com/archive/cult-of-the-cluetrain-manifest...

Ah, the days when John C Dvorak wrote the anti-editor column in the back of MacUser....

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#26
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are much more empowered to know the truth: Amazon reviews, restaurant reviews etc. Yes they can be manipulated, and yes counterfeit products can make their way into the supply chain, but we are forgetting that before the internet the lack of scaled reviews meant many more bad meals at restaurants. I think the problem is worse that you state. For instance, IIRC pretty much all the sites in the "independent" o…

Reddit seems less astroturfed. It's a serious source of reviews.

as long as you hold the correct opinions!

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#27
post #16

It’s amazing to think about that timeframe and how much optimism around the internet there was. We truly thought we’d get a voice and things would change. Now I’m depressed.

The optimism was always naive - and those of us who had been around in the usenet/bbs days knew better. And as linked elsewhere in the comments here, John C Dvorak was pretty spot on in his assessment (at the time).

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#28
post #15

It’s a shame this never caught on. I still think it’s a preferable way to communicate with your customers. Instead all the corporations doubled down on treating us like idiots. Maybe someday.

I read this book. Loved it. Have applied many of the principles in it over the years and saw great results.

Smaller companies are a place where the ideas in that book can be put to significant advantage.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#29

Blast from the past. My first experiences of the web were in the mid-late 1990s, and I remember this being so cool at the time. Reading it today makes me sad in so many ways. > Whether delivering information, opinions, perspectives, dissenting arguments or humorous asides, the human voice is typically open, natural, uncontrived. Instagram does not strike me as "open, natural, uncontrived". Nor does any other social m…

Great comment!

I would add loyalty programs linked to "get the APP for dealz!" to your quality comment here. Marketing wants to get their message into your mobile notifications badly. Of course, if they want it that bad, they probably should not have it.

Yes, I do not use company apps. Sometimes that is ultra expensive!! Shows us just what that access to our mobile devices and digital lives is worth too.

When the only way to get a good price is to use the app, I just quit doing business with that organization. I did install an app just once. So. Many. Notifications. Never again.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#30

Marking to market yields 1 truth: 6. The Internet is enabling conversations among human beings that were simply not possible in the era of mass media. and 2 competitors for the "aged like milk" title: 24. Bombastic boasts —We are positioned to become the preeminent provider of XYZ— do not constitute a position. 74. We are immune to advertising. Just forget it.

> Marking to market yields 1 truth:

> 6. The Internet is enabling conversations among human beings that were simply not possible in the era of mass media.

Though the implication is what would be positive; while it's arguable that, on the whole, it's actually been pretty corrosive.

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