Live data from Hacker News

The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

cluetrain.com

11–20 of 43 posts

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#11
Many comments here lament that adtech won, and that corporate speak is still the norm. All true, but many of the more “structural” premises have held, and we just don’t see them because they’re the norm now.

People are much more empowered to know the truth: Amazon reviews, restaurant reviews etc. Yes they can be manipulated, and yes counterfeit products can make their way into the supply chain, but we are forgetting that before the internet the lack of scaled reviews meant many more bad meals at restaurants.

Reviews accelerated evolutionary pressures on businesses. They got better!

Companies are more open and don’t / can’t keep secrets as they previously did. While imperfect, Glassdoor changed things for the better.

I’d even posit that while many huge brands still corpspeak, many are much more casual and some (Tesla, via Musk for example) are radically open and engage with their customers directly- truly listening and interacting and taking advice.

Lastly if you are reading this, I hope you have a great day today. :)

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#12
post #2

Friends of mine were wondering about the history after that seminal text: how we got from this (opinionated, but sensible approach) to agile coaches (they apparently never had a good experience of any; I worked with one a long time ago, the guy was like a fish on a tree at that particular company). I realized I don't know all the parts: I've met a couple of influential people in that world but there are still a lot o…

The Cluetrain Manifesto is not the same thing as The Agile Manifesto.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#13
The Cluetrain Manifesto is painful to read and suffers from inflated prose rather that speak plainly to the reader.

Tech columnist John C Dvorak disliked The Cluetrain Manifesto and wrote a very entertaining book review in PC Magazine from 2002:

Cult of the Cluetrain Manifesto: https://www.pcmag.com/archive/cult-of-the-cluetrain-manifest...

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#14
post #11

Many comments here lament that adtech won, and that corporate speak is still the norm. All true, but many of the more “structural” premises have held, and we just don’t see them because they’re the norm now. People are much more empowered to know the truth: Amazon reviews, restaurant reviews etc. Yes they can be manipulated, and yes counterfeit products can make their way into the supply chain, but we are forgetting…

> People are much more empowered to know the truth: Amazon reviews, restaurant reviews etc. Yes they can be manipulated, and yes counterfeit products can make their way into the supply chain, but we are forgetting that before the internet the lack of scaled reviews meant many more bad meals at restaurants.

I think the problem is worse that you state. For instance, IIRC pretty much all the sites in the "independent" online mattress review industry are either owned by some particular mattress company and shill for them or are pay-for-play. There's a huge amount of astroturfing, even for now-end no name products.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#15
It’s a shame this never caught on. I still think it’s a preferable way to communicate with your customers.

Instead all the corporations doubled down on treating us like idiots.

Maybe someday.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#17
Marking to market yields 1 truth:

6. The Internet is enabling conversations among human beings that were simply not possible in the era of mass media.

and 2 competitors for the "aged like milk" title:

24. Bombastic boasts —We are positioned to become the preeminent provider of XYZ— do not constitute a position.

74. We are immune to advertising. Just forget it.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#18
Blast from the past. My first experiences of the web were in the mid-late 1990s, and I remember this being so cool at the time. Reading it today makes me sad in so many ways.

> Whether delivering information, opinions, perspectives, dissenting arguments or humorous asides, the human voice is typically open, natural, uncontrived.

Instagram does not strike me as "open, natural, uncontrived". Nor does any other social media. Does that mean our de facto modes of interpersonal communication online are no longer authentically human? Probably. How the hell did we get here from there?

> Hyperlinks subvert hierarchy.

Hyperlinks have been used to create hierarchy. It's the point of PageRank. SEO and backlinks are the currency of half the digital economy now. There are hundreds of thousands of people on Earth employed to worry about _nothing else_ for 40+ hours a week.

> Today, the org chart is hyperlinked, not hierarchical. Respect for hands-on knowledge wins over respect for abstract authority.

Does anybody believe this is completely true in any organisation anywhere on earth today?

> Smart companies will get out of the way and help the inevitable to happen sooner.

The market has rewarded companies getting in the way of everything. Personally owned and hosted blogs were replaced by social media companies, digital marketers prioritised making Google's crawlers happy over making human beings happy, public mailing lists outside of open source projects are basically dead because now we need to have our conversations on corporate owned web properties - from LinkedIn to Quora, Stack Exchange to this very site we engage with each other via, today.

Some are better than others. I don't think any of them are better than what we once had, other than search has become the starting point of any enquiry, and they often facilitate search better than what they replaced.

> We are immune to advertising. Just forget it.

The defining technology sector of the last 20 years - when we look back it in 100 years - must be considered adtech. The market had the conversation, and most people decided they'd click "Accept" on those banners and wave it all away. The majority of online humanity is not just not immune to advertising, we're happy to be spied on to facilitate it just so long as we don't have to pay for content, thanks.

In some ways companies did adjust to this siren call, but they did it through the safe silos of social media accounts and advertising. Individual brands (celebrities you like), now may have teams of people curating "natural" conversations, while marketing departments and companies have realised that they need to have "conversations" to support their traditional models.

I truly believe it is the efforts of these people, teams and organisations that resist personal ownership of the web: the return to the personal website as the de facto presence online. They can't have a conversation with you like that. They have no way to inject themselves into the experience of you reading somebody's blog the same way they do if you're reading their Facebook or Twitter comments.

So, what now?

This has been a deeply depressing comment to right. The web was wonderful. The internet was so full of promise. This journey back to the early days which I remember with so much fondness has now reminded me: we lost. It's over. I don't know how we'll ever get it back.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#19
We are immune to advertising. Just forget it.

The idiotic rise of the "influencer" and all the surrounding cultures show we aren't just not immune to advertising, we crave it.

Edit: removed pointless snark/retained essential cynicism.

Re: The Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

#20
post #15

It’s a shame this never caught on. I still think it’s a preferable way to communicate with your customers. Instead all the corporations doubled down on treating us like idiots. Maybe someday.

When JC Penney decided to lower prices across the board and eliminate doorbuster sales, coupons and other manipulative tactics, their revenue dropped to the point that their CEO was fired.

Let's not forget about A&W and their famous 1/3 pounder debacle.

Unfortunately, treating customers like intelligent human beings is currently not a scalable business tactic.

> Maybe someday

I think we'll always get what we deserve. Some day that'll be better.

Post reply on HN