The fragmented nature of modern-day railways • Hacker News Board

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#21

Post by kzrdude » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:13 PM UTC

There is a lot more wheat to ship than could ever fit on rail cars.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61583492

"Ukrainian farmers have 20 million tonnes of grain they cannot get to international markets"

Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; that's still 2 million rail cars. The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so - so now we're down to 20,000 grain train runs needed for the export.

It's not possible, not enough rail capacity, not enough rail cars and engines or days in a year to do it.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#22

Post by maxerickson » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:17 PM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #21

There is a lot more wheat to ship than could ever fit on rail cars. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61583492 "Ukrainian farmers have 20 million tonnes of grain they cannot get to international markets" Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; that's still 2 million rail cars. The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so - so now we're down to 20,000 grain train runs needed for th…

Apparently hopper cars can hold ~100 tons.

Still some tough arithmetic.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#23

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:24 PM UTC

kzrdude wrote: post #21

There is a lot more wheat to ship than could ever fit on rail cars. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61583492 "Ukrainian farmers have 20 million tonnes of grain they cannot get to international markets" Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; that's still 2 million rail cars. The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so - so now we're down to 20,000 grain train runs needed for th…

> Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car;

What if we don't underestimate by a full order of magnitude? [0]

> The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so

Why? Freight trains over 100 cars are fairly routine.

[0] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/commentary-moving-grain-is... : “Rail’s economic advantage comes in large part from each railroad car’s capacity of up to 100 tons”

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#24

Post by kzrdude » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #22

kzrdude wrote: post #21

There is a lot more wheat to ship than could ever fit on rail cars. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61583492 "Ukrainian farmers have 20 million tonnes of grain they cannot get to international markets" Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; that's still 2 million rail cars. The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so - so now we're down to 20,000 grain train runs needed for th…

Apparently hopper cars can hold ~100 tons. Still some tough arithmetic.

Now I learned thought that "In 2020, U.S. Class I railroads moved nearly 1.5 million carloads of grain."

Apparently it's almost possible in that sense.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#25

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:27 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #23

kzrdude wrote: post #21

There is a lot more wheat to ship than could ever fit on rail cars. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61583492 "Ukrainian farmers have 20 million tonnes of grain they cannot get to international markets" Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; that's still 2 million rail cars. The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so - so now we're down to 20,000 grain train runs needed for th…

> Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; What if we don't underestimate by a full order of magnitude? [0] > The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so Why? Freight trains over 100 cars are fairly routine. [0] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/commentary-moving-grain-is... : “Rail’s economic advantage comes in large part from each railroad car’s capacity of up to 100 tons”

[deleted]

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#26

Post by warning26 » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:28 PM UTC

california2077 wrote: post #18

This would be a perfect place to try Hyperloop-like solution at scale.

Regauging the railways too expensive? Not a problem, we'll just build a series of vacuum sealed maglev railways instead. Much cheaper.

Wait a minute...

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#27

Post by bobthepanda » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #23

kzrdude wrote: post #21

There is a lot more wheat to ship than could ever fit on rail cars. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61583492 "Ukrainian farmers have 20 million tonnes of grain they cannot get to international markets" Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; that's still 2 million rail cars. The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so - so now we're down to 20,000 grain train runs needed for th…

> Let's say you could ship 10 ton (10,000 kg) per train car; What if we don't underestimate by a full order of magnitude? [0] > The longest possible freight train would be 100 cars or so Why? Freight trains over 100 cars are fairly routine. [0] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/commentary-moving-grain-is... : “Rail’s economic advantage comes in large part from each railroad car’s capacity of up to 100 tons”

The European network is not generally set up to handle these long freight trains, because passenger trains are prioritized and the long freights screw that up (see: Amtrak)

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#28

Post by AlbertCory » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

If you are not a train buff, this comment is not for you. (I wouldn't claim I'm one myself, but let's say I'm a "sympathizer.")

I just heard about this rather large model railroad [1], up near Skyline on private land (this is in the Bay Area). When I say "rather large" I mean "you can ride on it." It's members-only. I'm not a member. (If you were only 60 years old, you'd be the youngest.)

They have giant workshops where you build things to maintain the railroad.

[1] https://www.pvarr.org/

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#29

Post by larusso » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:51 PM UTC

kergonath wrote: post #17

kposehn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Agreed for the most part, though I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape). 2. There are multiple different ways of handling BofG; the holdup is just deploying it effectively. 3. For loading gauge, using EU grain hauling stock with variable gauge (or swapped) bogies would be ideal - this avoids issues with larger cars and heavier axle l…

> I think a startup could overcome the break-of-gauge limitations pretty fast with moderate investment (and less red tape) I am not sure what the angle is, here. Variable-gauge trains are things we can build, and as a matter of fact there are a bunch of them crossing the French-Spanish border every day. It’s not some magical disruptive technology that boring old engineering firms could not crack. It would not solve t…

> It would not solve the issues already mentioned, which is that infrastructure is built for a set gauge, and wide-gauge carriages cannot physically fit in some places in a narrow-gauge network.

My solution to this problem: Build it the other way. Use dual carriages from the EU side and add the gauge changeover at the border. I really don‘t see the reason why the wide-gauge trains have to travel over the border. Yes they can carry more load but that is simply something we have to live with. But they will try to unblock the ports before they even attempt to solve this issue.

Re: The fragmented nature of modern-day railways

#30

Post by photochemsyn » Sat, Jun 25, 2022, 6:59 PM UTC

It's a bit surprising to see an article on modern-day rail that doesn't at least mention China's remarkable advances in rail. You can love or hate their state-sponsored, approach, but it seems undeniable that Chinese rail is the most advanced in the world at present.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_China