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What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

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Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#21

Post by martindbp »

radu_floricica wrote: post #19

This is pretty stupid, IMO. Lowering indoor temperature by 8 degrees? What are we, cavemen? That's not even good as a joke. Maslow's pyramid is supposed to be a model too simple to be useful, but I guess some people do need it reminded to them from time to time. We'll most definitely heat our houses to virtually the same temperature, that's not even a topic. And discussing about electric heaters as if they're even a…

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally, as a Swede I'm very much willing to turn down/off the heat if that can force an end to Russian aggression, as I'm sure many others in Europe are. We can still live comfortably by for example heating one room instead of five. The important part is that industry is not affected.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#22

Post by brtkdotse »

ComradePhil wrote: post #20
brtkdotse wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Must… resist… “well actually” this person about heat pumps…

Heat pumps are either impractical or very expensive and time consuming to install in apartment buildings, which is where most of the European population lives, so there's that.

At least in Sweden I’m seeing more and more appartment building with a big honking air-to-water units outside of them.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#23

Post by radu_floricica »

martindbp wrote: post #21
radu_floricica wrote: post #19

This is pretty stupid, IMO. Lowering indoor temperature by 8 degrees? What are we, cavemen? That's not even good as a joke. Maslow's pyramid is supposed to be a model too simple to be useful, but I guess some people do need it reminded to them from time to time. We'll most definitely heat our houses to virtually the same temperature, that's not even a topic. And discussing about electric heaters as if they're even a…

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally,…

I could copy paste almost verbatim a comment I made a year ago to somebody being equally outraged by plastic packaging and being willing to pay the extra price for bio replacements. The gist of it, you're not the only one who has to pay for your outrage. And more to the point, you're quite likely well above the average income in EU just for being a Swede on HN, so you're not even the one who'd really feel the cost of such policies. Just like how poor people would definitely feel the extra euro paid by supply chain issues created by a full ban of plastic, also poor people will pay the most utility cost of having more expensive heating. Euro, we pay the same, but pain will be concentrated in the lower income levels.

And btw, I strongly dislike having to type this. I'm both a libertarian and a Romanian, and on both counts I shouldn't have to take this position. But those are the facts.

Also I wasn't even talking about total cost, but relative one. People will definitely cut other things before sleeping in 13 degree homes. Hell, they'd take loans if needed. A home is a home, you don't go back there to pitch a tent in the living room, not unless it's a literal war zone. So whatever things we prepare for, imagining 8 degree cuts is just a fantasy. We just have to find other options.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#24

Post by cersa8 »

"The IEA indicates average indoor temperatures in the EU are now about 22° C" Wow, current room temperature here is around 16 degrees Celsius, perfectly fine as long as you don't wear a t-shirt. Still comfortable too. I guess it all depends on what you're used to. As an added benefit, a lower room temperature induces a higher metabolic rate [0] , which could help fight our obesity problem (okay, that might be stretching it a bit)

[0] https://www.nature.com/articles/1601308

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#25

Post by ghostwriter »

martindbp wrote: post #21
radu_floricica wrote: post #19

This is pretty stupid, IMO. Lowering indoor temperature by 8 degrees? What are we, cavemen? That's not even good as a joke. Maslow's pyramid is supposed to be a model too simple to be useful, but I guess some people do need it reminded to them from time to time. We'll most definitely heat our houses to virtually the same temperature, that's not even a topic. And discussing about electric heaters as if they're even a…

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally,…

Lowering room temperatures will not help european industries that do need persistent supply of energy to sustain their production chains such as glass blowing and steel casting [1].

[1] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/gaslieferun...

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#26

Post by dontlaugh »

martindbp wrote: post #21
radu_floricica wrote: post #19

This is pretty stupid, IMO. Lowering indoor temperature by 8 degrees? What are we, cavemen? That's not even good as a joke. Maslow's pyramid is supposed to be a model too simple to be useful, but I guess some people do need it reminded to them from time to time. We'll most definitely heat our houses to virtually the same temperature, that's not even a topic. And discussing about electric heaters as if they're even a…

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally,…

I remember a time when my Serbian neighbours were bombed by the US.

As a Romanian, I fear the US and the EU far more than Russia.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#27

Post by reducesuffering »

dontlaugh wrote: post #26
martindbp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally,…

I remember a time when my Serbian neighbours were bombed by the US. As a Romanian, I fear the US and the EU far more than Russia.

And what of your Kosovar Albanian neighbors? US and EU were there to stop the conflict that caused 5 times more of them to be killed. No one in their right mind could make the case for involvement to be around oil or money, as opposed to humanitarian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

Serbia supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine is proof enough of who the actual aggressors are.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#28

Post by yakak »

ghostwriter wrote: post #25
martindbp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia poses a larger threat to our base needs such as not being shelled by Russian artillery. Many countries are under serious threat, but more importantly, I and many others have a sense of outrage that I don't think has been felt since the second world war. This kind of outrage allows people to make sacrifices to punish the source of the outrage, this has been established in psychological experiments. Personally,…

Lowering room temperatures will not help european industries that do need persistent supply of energy to sustain their production chains such as glass blowing and steel casting [1]. [1] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/gaslieferun...

If you don't waste energy for over heating you have it for industry. Russia doesn't even provide half of the EU's gas or oil so extreme rationing of household and transport energy would mean very little rationing elsewhere.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#29

Post by helij »

reducesuffering wrote: post #27
dontlaugh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a time when my Serbian neighbours were bombed by the US. As a Romanian, I fear the US and the EU far more than Russia.

And what of your Kosovar Albanian neighbors? US and EU were there to stop the conflict that caused 5 times more of them to be killed. No one in their right mind could make the case for involvement to be around oil or money, as opposed to humanitarian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War Serbia supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine is proof enough of who the actual aggressors are.

Don't spread lies. Serbia is not supporting Russia in the war on Ukraine. For proof please check how they voted in UN. They condemned the Russian agression on Ukraine and voted to suspend Russia from Human Rights Council.

Your Wikipedia link is actually much more balanced and not black and white as your obvious anti-Serb sentiment.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#30

Post by ghostwriter »

yakak wrote: post #28
ghostwriter wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lowering room temperatures will not help european industries that do need persistent supply of energy to sustain their production chains such as glass blowing and steel casting [1]. [1] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/gaslieferun...

If you don't waste energy for over heating you have it for industry. Russia doesn't even provide half of the EU's gas or oil so extreme rationing of household and transport energy would mean very little rationing elsewhere.

It doesn’t have to be a half of the EU supply to cause shortages and shutdowns. And shortages at factories cause a ripple effect of supply chain disruptions in many dependent industries [1]

[1] https://m-delfi-lt.translate.goog/verslas/verslas/article.ph...

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