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What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

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Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#11

Post by MetricExpansion »

xyzzy21 wrote: post #4

The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.

This is a really bad take.

Heat pumps can have coefficients of performance (joules of cooling provided over joules of energy consumed) between 2.5-5 (going down as outside temperatures drop).

In most situations, it’s more efficient to burn the gas for electricity and then put it into a heat pump than to burn it directly for heating.

In the very coldest situations, where the heat pump less effective, then you may use the resistive heating to augment it.

And “green” tech is about changing power generation sources so that, even if you have some more inefficiency, it’s not polluting the planet or running down finite resources as much.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#12

Post by Borrible »

Barring a sudden but protracted scenario like an all-out-embargo that fuels (pun intended) my crazy post-apocalyptic gas war fantasies following massive heated social turmoil of the cold rabble boiling with rage, I anticipate minor problems for the grid, to which millions of electric heaters are suddenly connected. And although electric heaters are child's play to produce, I have my doubts about rapid implementation.

Of course, I already have two of them. One in the basement, one in my garden shed. And a small portable power station, nothing fancy.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#13

Post by hulitu »

Tagbert wrote: post #7
xyzzy21 wrote: post #4

The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.

Electric heat pumps can be over 100% efficient as they are using ambient heat to warm the house.

Damn entropy.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#15

Post by brtkdotse »

xyzzy21 wrote: post #4

The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.

Must… resist… “well actually” this person about heat pumps…

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#16

Post by Borrible »

hulitu wrote: post #14
bjoli wrote: post #3

Real patriots isolate their windows!

Real patriots use they own body temperature to heat the house.

Really real patriots do not need to heat, because they have an inner fire, burning fiercely.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/01/19/putin-takes-icy-di...

... And hopefully with heavy weapons that bastard and his miserable minions will be stopped cold.

Slava Ukraini

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#17

Post by radu_floricica »

xyzzy21 wrote: post #4

The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.

I'm not even touching heat pumps. But I do have to say that "loss of efficiency" in a supermajority of case is by... heat. Pretty much all the electricity that enters your house leaves it as heat. Heaters at 50%? I guess, if you use a long wave radio as an electric heater. Otherwise it's just 99.99%.

And if you mean electricity _generation_ is 50%, well, say so. That's a completely different topic, and electricity generation method are varied enough to make any single number meaningless. How do you calculate efficiency of hydro?

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#18

Post by ElectricalUnion »

xyzzy21 wrote: post #4

The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.

> The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse.

Electric heaters are 100% efficient in transforming joules to heat. The powerplant/transmission lines are the issue in this case.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#19

Post by radu_floricica »

This is pretty stupid, IMO. Lowering indoor temperature by 8 degrees? What are we, cavemen? That's not even good as a joke. Maslow's pyramid is supposed to be a model too simple to be useful, but I guess some people do need it reminded to them from time to time. We'll most definitely heat our houses to virtually the same temperature, that's not even a topic.

And discussing about electric heaters as if they're even a supply problem. They cost under $10 and they universally have 100% efficiency. As for building them... in my youth I've seen plenty made with just a brick and wire. We won't run out of them.

Issues are electricity cost and peak consumption. I predict plenty of wiring issues - not many people know their house's wiring is rated for a certain amperage, and having an extra 2-4 kw of electrical heating can easily put them over. Quite a few fuses will trip next winter.

But the real issue will be cost.

Re: What If Europe Loses Russian Natural Gas?

#20

Post by ComradePhil »

brtkdotse wrote: post #15
xyzzy21 wrote: post #4

The problem with "electric heaters" is that electricity for ANYTHING can NEVER be better that 50% efficient and often is worse. Natural gas heating can EASILY attain 70%-80% efficiency in heating. Green Energy is generally contrary to the laws of physics in this sense. It's one step forward and three-to-five steps backward.

Must… resist… “well actually” this person about heat pumps…

Heat pumps are either impractical or very expensive and time consuming to install in apartment buildings, which is where most of the European population lives, so there's that.
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