Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi • Hacker News Board

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#21

Post by BBC-vs-neolibs » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 12:13 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #12

pkd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Providing a defined, non-violent outlet for grievances is good, otherwise they come out as violence, like with Yugoslavia in your example. My view might be biased because I'm from the subcontinent, but basically the whole of the Indian subcontinent has done better with democracy than it was doing without it.

The civil war in Yugoslavia was the result of independence referendums after one party rule ended. It was the result of "democracy". This old idea that racial movements should be given free reign to express themselves as an outlet is the exact opposite of what most elites in the current democracies believe, as they are scrambling to reduce populism and ride the tiger of Democracy in diversifying societies while keepi…

It was also the result of decades of oppression.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#22

Post by mlboss » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 12:33 PM UTC

d3nj4l wrote: post #20

ripe wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think OP was suggesting merging the two countries. My relatives in India would consider such a suggestion with horror. Pakistan rarely enters their conversations, except when there’s a terror attack. Most of them just want Pakistan to mind its own business and leave them alone. Back to the story: In terms of size, diversity, and economic potential, Karachi is comparable to Mumbai, but the two cities couldn’t…

> but the two cities couldn’t be more different today. What do you mean?

Mumbai is the financial capital of India. It drives a significant portion of India’s GDP.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#23

Post by lordleft » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 12:54 PM UTC

virtuabhi wrote: post #8

[flagged]

As an Indian....why are you posting this? It doesn't feel germane to the conversation frankly.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#24

Post by blueblisters » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

pkd wrote: post #11

rsj_hn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After travelling and observing the world, I've come to the conclusion that most nations need Democracy like a starving man needs a foot massage. At best, it's just meaningless formalism. At worst, it can actively harm by providing outlets for ethnic/racial grievances in multicultural societies. I remember how instantly Yugoslavia disintegrated into racial and religious conflict after Tito. Heterogeneous societies ten…

Providing a defined, non-violent outlet for grievances is good, otherwise they come out as violence, like with Yugoslavia in your example. My view might be biased because I'm from the subcontinent, but basically the whole of the Indian subcontinent has done better with democracy than it was doing without it.

I think the Indian sub-continent did alright with democracy but I wouldn't say it was always the best choice. Singapore did well with a "benevolent authoritarian" founder who actively tried to minimize ethnic and racial differences and focusing on improving living standards and building institutions.

Most of the Indian subcontinent has leaders who can attribute their electoral success, at least partially, to pitting one group against another or to populist promises. Because their political capital is tied to one group and/or populist policies, they find it hard to spend it on improving integration between communities or driving pragmatic but unpopular policies that improve living standards in the long-run.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#25

Post by zodiakzz » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 3:36 PM UTC

mlboss wrote: post #22

d3nj4l wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the two cities couldn’t be more different today. What do you mean?

Mumbai is the financial capital of India. It drives a significant portion of India’s GDP.

Well Karachi is the sole sea port of Pakistan and generates more than 20% of Pakistan's entire GDP, so not that.

I think @ripe meant they're miles apart development-wise. The city doesn't even provide an ambulance service, entirely dependent on charity organizations. Public transport nonexistent. Public water supply is spotty, it's common to pay to get water delivered via a tanker truck. Electricity blackouts, etc.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#26

Post by statguy » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

ripe wrote: post #13

gremloni wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree but it would be terrible to merge with Pakistan at this point.

I don’t think OP was suggesting merging the two countries. My relatives in India would consider such a suggestion with horror. Pakistan rarely enters their conversations, except when there’s a terror attack. Most of them just want Pakistan to mind its own business and leave them alone. Back to the story: In terms of size, diversity, and economic potential, Karachi is comparable to Mumbai, but the two cities couldn’t…

> In terms of size, diversity, and economic potential, Karachi is comparable to Mumbai, but the two cities couldn’t be more different today.

You could say the same about Mumbai and Shanghai...

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#27

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

IMAYousaf wrote: post #5

There's a history of regionalism with regards to the cities and provinces in Pakistan that governs a lot of the domestic politics and intellectual milieu. Political parties tend to be a lot more regionally concentrated as opposed to American Political Parties which are spread out across the country. One of the often repeated lines is how any certain political party (take your pick) such as the one dominating the Sind…

I think I remember quite clearly Waseem Akhtar accusing Chaudhry Nisar of getting hair plugs in London to chase women and Imran Khan implying all of Babar Ghauri’s illegitimate children would be found in Africa.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#28

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

pkd wrote: post #11

rsj_hn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After travelling and observing the world, I've come to the conclusion that most nations need Democracy like a starving man needs a foot massage. At best, it's just meaningless formalism. At worst, it can actively harm by providing outlets for ethnic/racial grievances in multicultural societies. I remember how instantly Yugoslavia disintegrated into racial and religious conflict after Tito. Heterogeneous societies ten…

Providing a defined, non-violent outlet for grievances is good, otherwise they come out as violence, like with Yugoslavia in your example. My view might be biased because I'm from the subcontinent, but basically the whole of the Indian subcontinent has done better with democracy than it was doing without it.

Kashmir would like a word.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#29

Post by xyzzy21 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

This reminds me of Manila and the "rules of thumb" you need to have/follow. For similar reasons. Usually nothing happens but that's also because you have "situational awareness" to long avoid situations that could become dangerous.

My ex would never allow me to travel alone - I always had to be with one of her armed brothers. Being armed is technically illegal but that's really a barrier if you pay off the right people. You want a Glock or even an AK47 or M16/AR15? Just pay for the privilege.

My "fondest" memory is of a Magnolia ice cream shop being guarded by a placing security guard with a semi-auto shotgun as children were playing on the playground outside the ship.

Re: Understanding Pakistan through the story of Karachi

#30

Post by xyzzy21 » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #9

IMAYousaf wrote: post #5

There's a history of regionalism with regards to the cities and provinces in Pakistan that governs a lot of the domestic politics and intellectual milieu. Political parties tend to be a lot more regionally concentrated as opposed to American Political Parties which are spread out across the country. One of the often repeated lines is how any certain political party (take your pick) such as the one dominating the Sind…

After travelling and observing the world, I've come to the conclusion that most nations need Democracy like a starving man needs a foot massage. At best, it's just meaningless formalism. At worst, it can actively harm by providing outlets for ethnic/racial grievances in multicultural societies. I remember how instantly Yugoslavia disintegrated into racial and religious conflict after Tito. Heterogeneous societies ten…

Exactly. The context is missing and bigger problems exist that would need to be solved first.

This is why spent 20 years and $8T in Afghanistan to displace the Taliban only to re-install the Taliban again!! We NEVER learned the right lessons of Vietnam and we repeated history only on a far larger scale of Epic Fail.