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As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

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Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#21
"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now, that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

- Ayn Rand

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#22
post #14

I have no problem whatsoever with a law that criminalizes stealing arrowheads, or other artifacts, from archaeological sites. I have no problem with laws that prohibit poisoning water, dumping chemicals, killing endangered species, or other environmental crimes. So, if this is proliferation, please sign me up for more. I know that these things were not crimes fifty years ago, but we are better off now for having thes…

The laws are poorly written if they don't differentiate between criminal intent versus perfectly reasonable ignorance.

...versus perfectly reasonable behavior.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#23
post #7

Thanks to the State of California, virtually every private university president and trustee is now a criminal, too. http://www.quora.com/Aaron-Greenspan/The-California-Law-That...

Meh, every single person in the US is already a felon. We all possess schedule I drugs in our bodies[1], and there is plenty of legal precedent saying that you can be convicted of narcotics possession for drugs that are in your body. [1] DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, Anandamide, etc.

Don't forget steroids, BGH, HGH and other hormones.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#24
post #14

I have no problem whatsoever with a law that criminalizes stealing arrowheads, or other artifacts, from archaeological sites. I have no problem with laws that prohibit poisoning water, dumping chemicals, killing endangered species, or other environmental crimes. So, if this is proliferation, please sign me up for more. I know that these things were not crimes fifty years ago, but we are better off now for having thes…

The laws are poorly written if they don't differentiate between criminal intent versus perfectly reasonable ignorance.

[deleted]

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#25
post #3

Exactly the reasoning behind never speaking to police as detailed in these 2 videos a while back: http://boingboing.net/2008/07/28/law-prof-and-cop-agr.html The risk of self-incrimination is incredibly high since no person can even be aware of all of the laws that exist and may be violated.

great vids. the often overlooked flip-side is that cops Don't Like uncooperative people, so you could save yourself a pricey court appearance by cooperating when innocent.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#26

People complain about activist judges but I think a bigger problem is activist prosecuters who look to stretch the law to include targets that were not intended by the law. The biggest example of this that I can think of is the anti-hacking laws that are being made to charge people of simply using a web browser.

I'd argue it's flagrant abuse of the death penalty, to the extent that several states (Illinois, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York) have banned it since 2000 on constitutional / equitable use grounds. The politicization of prosecution makes certain punishments untenable.

Not that there isn't a certain amount of abuse of "anti-hacking" and similar rules.

In both cases (capital crimes, small-scale / activist hacking), defendants are often have limited means (and these are often further restricted through prosecutor maneuvers), and a plausible case can be made before a lay jury.

For more, see the Innocence Project: http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/The_Death_Penalty.ph...

Not that I disagree with your basic premise of prosecutorial misconduct.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#27
post #3

Exactly the reasoning behind never speaking to police as detailed in these 2 videos a while back: http://boingboing.net/2008/07/28/law-prof-and-cop-agr.html The risk of self-incrimination is incredibly high since no person can even be aware of all of the laws that exist and may be violated.

great vids. the often overlooked flip-side is that cops Don't Like uncooperative people, so you could save yourself a pricey court appearance by cooperating when innocent.

You can assert your rights simply and clearly.

It takes a certain amount of cahones, but you'll generally find that the cops will respect it.

A pricey court appearance beats a conviction in my book.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/430/v...

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#28

"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against - then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only p…

I don't find that to be the most plausible mechanism for the proliferation of laws at all. More likely, it's an emergent property of the legal system in a democratic context that can probably be explained in terms of game theory. At any legislative junction, there's a cost or benefit associated with enacting or not enacting a law. Take the arrowhead removal example from the article. You're a lawmaker and you're faced with the problem of people pilfering Native American artifacts, and this law is presented to you. Which side are you going to be on? The side of desecration? Or the side of preservation? Boom. Another law. At each juncture, there's a good reason to pass another law.

What emerges from this is a jumble of laws. Each local decision is made in response to an immediate concern, and cannot take the jumble-of-laws problem into account. You're only adding one law, after all, and it's benefit is clear.

"Well, what about repealing some?," you may ask. Well, what's the "game" when it comes to repealing them? Even if each law got on the books for--heh--objectively bad reasons, those reasons were still "good" in that they contained a political benefit. Often, repealing them would have the unacceptable adverse consequence of giving up that benifit. You wanna be the guy to repeal the broken sex offender registry laws and be perceived as on the side of rapists and pedophiles? How bout the U.S.A P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act and be perceived as being "on the side of the terrorists"? What now, hotshot?!

None of the above requires a conspiracy, as your post intimates. Those effects emerge as unintended consequences from the dynamics of a system. The even more infuriating thing about that quote in this context is that it ignores the corrective power of a democracy in crisis. There eventually does come a point where people wise up and rise up on specific issues. Prohibition, slavery, and civil rights come to mind. Revolutions, as they say, are impossible until they happen, and then they were inevitable.

Finally, the mechanism of control in your Rand quote is just ludicrous. How would one "cash in on guilt" in a system that is as patently absurd as the one you cite? Nobody would feel guilt about breaking those laws. The arrowhead collectors didn't "feel guilt." Quite the opposite, it seems. They paid the bill and openly talk about how absurd it is. The only way one could use a system like the one you outline would be to actually lock everyone up. It's just not practical, and it's not even the kind of control your example seems to advocate. Ostensibly, the controllers in your fictional example want people to behave a certain way out of fear of being locked up, not to actually have to lock them up for misbehaving.

Try to critically scratch the surface of word-butchered fanboy fictional allegories that comprise Ayn Rand's work before posting them here verbatim as if they actually have any bearing on the real world. The real issue here, and one from which your post serves as a distraction, is the evisceration of the mens rea requirement for a finding of guilt.

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#29
post #13
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, every single person in the US is already a felon. We all possess schedule I drugs in our bodies[1], and there is plenty of legal precedent saying that you can be convicted of narcotics possession for drugs that are in your body. [1] DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, Anandamide, etc.

That's a great critique of the CSA, but it's not really legally relevant. No court would convict for possession of endogenous DMT, and then that would be the precedent. Or to put it more simply, you're innocent until proven guilty. Felon means conviction.

You're quibbling. I mean, I understand that legally, one has to obtain a conviction to refer to someone as a felon, but practically, that's not the case, not with activist DAs floating around, trying to make a name for themselves as "tough on crime".

Re: As Criminal Laws Proliferate, More Are Ensnared

#30

People complain about activist judges but I think a bigger problem is activist prosecuters who look to stretch the law to include targets that were not intended by the law. The biggest example of this that I can think of is the anti-hacking laws that are being made to charge people of simply using a web browser.

You can see that in the comment from a prosecutor quoted in the piece that refers to "options". If you really wanted to ban some kind of behavior, the ideal outcome would be that everyone who does it is arrested, and nobody who doesn't. But from law-enforcement's perspective what they often want are "options" for prosecution--- so that when they find someone who they're pretty sure deserves to be arrested, they can dig up a statute that justifies the arrest. In that setting you actually want them as broad as possible, so you always have something in your back pocket to get someone with. Of course you don't prosecute everyone who uses a web browser... but if you find someone doing something "bad" but in a way that isn't specifically criminalized, it's always nice to have that "did a bad thing while using a webbrowser" charging option, eh?

I can sort of see the motivation; nobody likes to see someone who you're 95% sure is guilty manage to beat any charges because you technically couldn't get anything solid. But it's more dangerous a cure than the disease, I think.

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