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Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

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Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#21

Post by dragonwriter »

austincheney wrote: post #11

I have to agree. The US is a two party system, which is extremely limiting. One party badly wants to become an autocracy while the other wants to erode compromise in favor of becoming a single party super majority. I wish anti-trust actions apply to political parties and break them both apart.

> I wish anti-trust actions apply to political parties and break them both apart.

There are hundreds of political parties in the US; the stable equilibrium is only two competitive factions because of the electoral system. Breaking up currently dominant parties without addressing the electoral system won’t change anything meaningful. You need to fix the electoral system.

Specifically, the solid evidence from across modern democracies is that if you want multiple competitive parties, you need to adopt a system which tends toward proportional representation, like STV with multimember districts, and it helps further to maximize the relative power of the proportionally representative body (Tinkering with voting methods for single-member legislative districts wouldn't actually help much.)

Having winner-take-all elections for thr legislature, investing wxtra power in the less represntative body within the legislature, and having a strong Presidency that is indirectly elected all tend against having multiple competitive parties.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#22

Post by fatboy93 »

airza wrote: post #9

I felt this way for a long time, so I put my money where my mouth is and I left. I'm not sure if it will take 10, 20, or 30 years (sometimes it feels like even less!) but it's so hard to look at the American superstructure and see a system that is capable of self-repair or dealing with new problems.

What other places are better to live in?

My country is starting to look like a fascist authoritative regime run by a megalomaniac.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#23

Post by betwixthewires »

This has more to do with worldwide propaganda and less to do with changes in the US in particular, and with regard to changes, it probably has a lot more to do with post 9/11 military activity and demographic changes in ally countries than any one particular president or leadership. Also keep in mind their national pride and the propensity for Canadians and Europeans to shit on America as often as they can, which they have been doing for a century or longer.

The US has a lot of problems and has had a lot of problems for a long time. The country might not be capable of overcoming some of them, and that also might not be something new. But, going by the strict definition of democracy, it has never been a good model for democracy, by design. The US is a dictatorship of laws, a dictatorship where the dictators are dead. Maybe it was a good champion of liberty for a long time and faltering more brazenly in that role as of the last couple of decades, but that's not the same thing as being a model for democracy.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#24

Post by jMyles »

syshum wrote: post #4

That is good, as we are a model of good Federalist Republic. The continued attempts to make the U.S. a national democracy is an ongoing problem, we need and should revert many of the "democratic" elements that have been put into our system, such as repealing the 17th amendment, we should more limit the power and scope of the federal government reversing bad Supreme Court Rulings such as Wickard v filburn which expend…

The problem is: we're not a 'model' of a republic. We've set aside many of those values in favor of a different and incompatible set, some democratic and many authoritarian.

We have professional police, slavery dressed up as prisons, fiat currency, income taxes, a standing army, no meaningful access to trial by jury for most people in most situations, closed borders, rampant eminent domain to build freeways... it's hard to recognize this state as any serious resemblance to a properly functioning republic.

But I think your overall point, and suggestions, are basically sound and, hopefully, the kind of direction we'll take increasingly seriously as our current state falters.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#25

Post by airza »

brandonmenc wrote: post #16

You can see from the charts that this poll is really just "how do you feel about the current US president." https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image...

Huh? The poll shows that 17% of people think that it is a good model for democracy in recent years, but Biden's confidence among those people is 75%.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#26

Post by bhupy »

LatteLazy wrote: post #12
syshum wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> (the senate has so much power and seems designed to be antidemocratic for a start). That is because it is.... and that is a GOOD thing The Senate is designed to be the State's (i.e the state governments) representative in the federal government, We are a union of 50 independent states, people seem to forget that. it is the United *States* of America, The House of Representatives is the People i.e the citizens cha…

I think we're mostly in agreement: the senate is NOT a democratic institution. Whether it should be or not is another matter. Fyi, I'd say the senate is more like a house of Lords. Before it was required to be elected it was routinely bought by the richest interests in a state. It represented the interests of the Uber rich. Again, not a judgment just an observation...

The US Senate pre-17A was more akin to the EU upper house, the Council of the EU.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01402382.2016.11...

Same with Germany’s upper house, the Bundesrat, today.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#27

Post by ludamad »

fatboy93 wrote: post #22
airza wrote: post #9

I felt this way for a long time, so I put my money where my mouth is and I left. I'm not sure if it will take 10, 20, or 30 years (sometimes it feels like even less!) but it's so hard to look at the American superstructure and see a system that is capable of self-repair or dealing with new problems.

What other places are better to live in? My country is starting to look like a fascist authoritative regime run by a megalomaniac.

I wonder about this - some have felt this under President $FOO but $FOO still had to concede to a loss or term limits. I feel like actual change of power is important, and the US still has this while a lot of the world is losing it

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#28

Post by jMyles »

bildung wrote: post #20
syshum wrote: post #4

That is good, as we are a model of good Federalist Republic. The continued attempts to make the U.S. a national democracy is an ongoing problem, we need and should revert many of the "democratic" elements that have been put into our system, such as repealing the 17th amendment, we should more limit the power and scope of the federal government reversing bad Supreme Court Rulings such as Wickard v filburn which expend…

I have no idea what this means, but I'm also completely illiterate in US political theory. Is your point that republic implies strong federalism and democratic does not?

> republic implies strong federalism and democratic does not

This is, in essence, a substantial portion of what is asserted in The Federalist Papers, an 85-part series of letters and treatises written and distributed in 1788 by three proponents of adoption of the US Constitution.

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#29

Post by rsynnott »

LatteLazy wrote: post #12
syshum wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> (the senate has so much power and seems designed to be antidemocratic for a start). That is because it is.... and that is a GOOD thing The Senate is designed to be the State's (i.e the state governments) representative in the federal government, We are a union of 50 independent states, people seem to forget that. it is the United *States* of America, The House of Representatives is the People i.e the citizens cha…

I think we're mostly in agreement: the senate is NOT a democratic institution. Whether it should be or not is another matter. Fyi, I'd say the senate is more like a house of Lords. Before it was required to be elected it was routinely bought by the richest interests in a state. It represented the interests of the Uber rich. Again, not a judgment just an observation...

The senate is rather like the House of Lords 200 years ago. Many countries have pseudo-democratic or undemocratic upper houses, but they’ve generally been neutered to some extent over time. The US hasn’t done this (no Parliament act, say).

Re: Allies Believe U.S. 'No Longer a Good Model of Democracy,' Poll Shows

#30

Post by Epskampie »

ChrisRR wrote: post #14

As long as the US keeps treating politics like it's a sport to be won by your team, and remain willfully ignorant of how big corporations actively run their country, it's not going to improve.

I’d say the problem is more in the two party system. If you think about all the opinions one can have about how a country should be run, it’s plain weird to only have two choices.
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