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Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

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Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#21

x86 is dead - first in consumer, then in cloud. It is hard to see to me how this ends any other way. The creative class (us) will quickly have largely all ARM computers within 4 years. Its not hard to see from there how software will be even more optimized for ARM variants than x86 and that the scale of both mobile and consumer computing will push x86 out of the datacenter slowly as old software that relies on x86 is…

Creative class is a lot more than programmers. Look at boutique system integrators like Puget Systems... do you see Apple/ARM Hardware? Heck no you don't! These guys sell hardware to a LOT of the companies that comprise the credits in movie production, game production, laboratories, university science departments, ML researchers, big energy, and soooooo much more. These guys are not rewriting their software stack for…

The parent comment didn’t say “we’ll all be using Apple”

He said ARM.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#22
Ryzen 7401p still represents the pinnacle-for-it's-time value offering to me. 24 cores, single socket, on a 14nm process, launched July 2017 for $1075. Just an amazing breakthrough processor. At the time there were supposed to be X300 and A300 chipsets coming, basically just boot bios, to make ultra-low cost motherboards possible. There have been improvements since then to architecture & IPC, but overall it feels like we've been headed in reverse since then in terms of chips that get put into medium/large-ish sized chassis.

It has been remarkable what a mockery Mac has made of mobile chips, and now of desktop chips. At a way more reasonable price point.

> but the company’s decision to eschew clock speed disclosures suggests that these CPUs differ only modestly.

I forget exactly when but the first Google IO that happened where Google started offering simply "Intel Core i5" or i7, without saying the model number (2017?), without revealing speeds, & it was a huge huge jumping the shark moment for me. A post competitive market, where speeds were good enough, where reputation & market presence domineered over metrics & comparable factors. I don't think chasing specific GHz & cache size numbers &c is super rewarding or important, but it felt like the first time we were being sold an unspecific system, where obvious inquiry into what we were buying was blocked.

This is somewhat the opposite of this article: that Apple has found a good enough CPU to sell everywhere. But I still think the real truth is that the providers, those building systems, have begun to refuse to compete. They refuse to detail what they are offering. AMD has been without competition and the new 24c chip is considerably more expensive, albeit for yes more IPC, but it still hurts me a little. Looking at Google no longer allowing us to have any idea what kind of Core i5 or whatever chip though, they beat this article to the punch almost half a decade ago. Consumers haven't been given respect, haven't been allowed to know what wattage, what caches, what Hz their chips use for a long time now. Google started that, Google pushed the post-knowable computing upon us. Apple is merely following up on this, merely delivering what Google started, at a far better price point, with far better underlying technology.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#23

I think Apple will keep selling x86 Macs forever. For heavy-duty workstation workloads, M1 just doesn't cut it.

I'm expecting apple to go the tiles or chiplet route for their workstation processors. TSMC have been working on some advanced packaging methods that are ideal for this usecase.

Apple could make one 16 core die and offer workstations with anywhere between one and four tiles for 16 to 64 cores.

As for the high end laptops and iMacs, I'm expecting Apple to launch a monolithic 8+4 chip.

That would be just 3 unique dies to cover Apples entire Mac lineup.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#24

x86 is dead - first in consumer, then in cloud. It is hard to see to me how this ends any other way. The creative class (us) will quickly have largely all ARM computers within 4 years. Its not hard to see from there how software will be even more optimized for ARM variants than x86 and that the scale of both mobile and consumer computing will push x86 out of the datacenter slowly as old software that relies on x86 is…

Creative class is a lot more than programmers. Look at boutique system integrators like Puget Systems... do you see Apple/ARM Hardware? Heck no you don't! These guys sell hardware to a LOT of the companies that comprise the credits in movie production, game production, laboratories, university science departments, ML researchers, big energy, and soooooo much more. These guys are not rewriting their software stack for…

ARM, not Apple. They are not the same thing.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#25
post #22

Ryzen 7401p still represents the pinnacle-for-it's-time value offering to me. 24 cores, single socket, on a 14nm process, launched July 2017 for $1075. Just an amazing breakthrough processor. At the time there were supposed to be X300 and A300 chipsets coming, basically just boot bios, to make ultra-low cost motherboards possible. There have been improvements since then to architecture & IPC, but overall it feels lik…

> but the company’s decision to eschew clock speed disclosures

There's one other major factor here: clock speed isn't all that useful for this new architecture full of custom-purpose cores, asymmetric cores, a new arrangement of connections between cores, etc. Actual benchmarks may be useful, but not so much a clock speed measurement (and which of those various asymmetric cores are you measuring against?).

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creative class is a lot more than programmers. Look at boutique system integrators like Puget Systems... do you see Apple/ARM Hardware? Heck no you don't! These guys sell hardware to a LOT of the companies that comprise the credits in movie production, game production, laboratories, university science departments, ML researchers, big energy, and soooooo much more. These guys are not rewriting their software stack for…

The parent comment didn’t say “we’ll all be using Apple” He said ARM.

I edited my comment as I think in the context of the larger discussion, ARM and Apple are basically interchangeable.

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#27

x86 is dead - first in consumer, then in cloud. It is hard to see to me how this ends any other way. The creative class (us) will quickly have largely all ARM computers within 4 years. Its not hard to see from there how software will be even more optimized for ARM variants than x86 and that the scale of both mobile and consumer computing will push x86 out of the datacenter slowly as old software that relies on x86 is…

Are there examples of Arm designs OTHER than the M1 which are suitable for consumers? Yes, the M1 is a remarkable product and it will certainly make inroads against x86 on the desktop but it is from a single company. Will Apple M1 (2, 3 etc) replace all x86 devices in a decade? That’s hard to swallow. Now, if we see another Arm product released that ALSO kicks x86 butt, from another player, then maybe I’d believe a change is happening

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#28

x86 is dead - first in consumer, then in cloud. It is hard to see to me how this ends any other way. The creative class (us) will quickly have largely all ARM computers within 4 years. Its not hard to see from there how software will be even more optimized for ARM variants than x86 and that the scale of both mobile and consumer computing will push x86 out of the datacenter slowly as old software that relies on x86 is…

Are there examples of Arm designs OTHER than the M1 which are suitable for consumers? Yes, the M1 is a remarkable product and it will certainly make inroads against x86 on the desktop but it is from a single company. Will Apple M1 (2, 3 etc) replace all x86 devices in a decade? That’s hard to swallow. Now, if we see another Arm product released that ALSO kicks x86 butt, from another player, then maybe I’d believe a c…

if you are not using an apple phone, your smartphone likely uses an ARM-licensed chip, and chromebooks/windows RT devices ran ARM cores

the only thing holding back wider adoption is legacy x86 software

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#29

x86 is dead - first in consumer, then in cloud. It is hard to see to me how this ends any other way. The creative class (us) will quickly have largely all ARM computers within 4 years. Its not hard to see from there how software will be even more optimized for ARM variants than x86 and that the scale of both mobile and consumer computing will push x86 out of the datacenter slowly as old software that relies on x86 is…

waiting for the gaming console announcement

Re: Apple’s M1 Positioning Mocks the Entire x86 Business Model

#30
I remain interested in seeing how much of Apple's lead is the process size, and how much is engineering prowess.

That is, would a more generic new ARM Neoverse on 5nm perform at roughly the same clip? I suppose AWS's Graviton 3 would be the first place to see that, or something close to it.

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