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Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

nature.com

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Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#21

Post by zaksoup »

leephillips wrote: post #15

There are so many ways to interpret a correlation such as this. For example, one possible obvious mechanism is that people in the trans community may be more likely to encourage autistic people to believe that they “are transgender”. The study uncritically uses the concept “transgender and gender-diverse individuals have elevated rates of autism” without ascribing any operational meaning to “transgender and gender-di…

I've flagged this comment but I also feel the need to write a response because this kind of uncritical dog-whistle is something that actively contributes to violence against trans people. There's no evidence to suggest that trans folks encourage anybody, including autistic folks, to "believe that they're trans."

However, there is myriad evidence that fear of trans folks "converting" other people is one of the motivating factors of violence against trans people.

If there are "so many ways to interpret a correlation such as this" I'd encourage the parent commenter to consider using as examples ideas which have evidence to back them up and that are not directly linked as motivations behind violence against trans people.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#23

Post by crooked-v »

himinlomax wrote: post #17
vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. They sound like bad people. Let me offer an alternative explanation: you're thinking about a persyn made of dried grass.

As someone who heard those comments made about a trans friend of mine in childhood: yes, those people do exist.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#24

Post by FriendlyNormie »

lemonberry wrote: post #16
Pfhreak wrote: post #7

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be careful about over generalizing (e.g. "All trans people are neurodiverse"). Edit: Also, happy to answer questions about being non-binary (specifically, gender fluid) if folks have good faith questions.

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's import…

No post body was provided.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#25

Post by vmception »

hh3k0 wrote: post #18
vmception wrote: post #11

Some detractors often say transgender people have mental health issues. But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. A reality is that: A) Gender dysphoria is an imbalance of neural state. Therefore that would by definition be a mental health issue but not like the detractors say. B) Acknowledging and accommodating gender dysphoria discomfort costs cisgender people nothi…

> But they mean it in the sense that they should be in an asylum or should not be catered to. I have often heard it in a sense of "should not be catered to but rather given medical help". A fellow student once told me that he considers the current way of treating gender dysphoria irresponsible and that, if we'd treat schizophrenia the way we treat gender dysphoria, we'd all have to aknowledge the voices they hear and…

that response honestly sounds like he is referring to a caricature of schizophrenia as the ultimate ignorable and irreconcilable mental health disorder and doesn't actually know how we treat schizophrenia either

how do we treat schizophrenia? it is something that can also be managed

thats the primary limitation of the analogy. the secondary limitation of the analogy is that un-ironically accepting pronouns that otherwise bend the English language really costs us nothing, and gives us productive members of society instead of marginalized.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#26

Post by claudeganon »

lemonberry wrote: post #16
Pfhreak wrote: post #7

Hanging out in trans circles (as a non-binary person myself), this seems commonly known within the community. Interesting to see research done here, but I'd be careful about over generalizing (e.g. "All trans people are neurodiverse"). Edit: Also, happy to answer questions about being non-binary (specifically, gender fluid) if folks have good faith questions.

Have you heard of Abigail Shrier's book "The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters"? She was on Joe Rogan's podcast recently though I have yet to listen to it. A quick search turned up, not surprisingly, some negative critiques and others that are more positive. If you have heard of it, or read it, I'd love to hear what you think of her position. I appreciate the offer to be part of a dialogue. I think it's import…

It don’t think it should be part of the conversation because it seems transparently little more than culture war scapegoating for an audience hungry for a moral panic.

If you want a more considered text for a general audience, I’d recommend Brynn Tanehill’s, “Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Trans (But Were Afraid to Ask).”

Also useful is this point-by-point, sourced rebuttal to the misinformation Rogan repeatedly spreads (which references the above text):

https://www.adamconover.net/adding-evidence-to-the-discussio...

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#27

Post by timwaagh »

moultano wrote: post #8

Are there leading candidate hypotheses for the cause of autism? Do we know things like heritability, correlation with environmental pollutants, anything?

because the definition consists of many different phenomena and in places does not specify whether all or some should be present, i suspect there is never going to be any single cause.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#28

Post by crooked-v »

alicemaz wrote: post #10
SubiculumCode wrote: post #4

This is my 2020 paper in a similar vein. We found attenuated sex differences in amygdala resting-state connectivity between boys and girls with autism, but robust sex differences in amygdala connectivity in typically developing boys and girls. This pattern was observed using both univariate and multivariate analytical approaches, consistent with gender incoherence hypothesis, which stands in contrast with extreme mal…

oh interesting. I've had a pet theory for awhile now re: trans/autism comorbidity that they're better thought of as symptoms (among others! op's link notes higher incidence of every surveyed mental disorder) of some underlying brain abnormality, rather than being tangled up in some causal relationship with each other. had not heard of gender incoherence theory before

One thing I would respectfully suggest here is to use language like 'atypical' rather than 'abnormal', as it avoids some of the unpleasant subtext of the latter word. (At least so far - the euphemism treadmill makes for an unending race, but it's still worth putting in the effort.)

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#29

Post by zaksoup »

neonate wrote: post #22
jmcgough wrote: post #20

My mother's family is all autistic engineers. I and two of my cousins transitioned as teenagers, so I've had my own theories about this for years.

I'd love to hear your theories if you'd be willing to share them.

I'm not the OC but many of my friends and peers are trans and I find "agender" to be the most useful descriptor to myself.

One thing I've noted is that once you start to identify the ways in which gender is fundamentally a social construct the link with autistic/neurodivergent folks makes much more sense. Anybody who struggles to instinctively navigate social norms and behaviors will also struggle to instinctively navigate gendered norms and behaviors, simply because the two are inextricable.

Re: Elevated rates of autism in transgender and gender-diverse individuals

#30

Post by leephillips »

zaksoup wrote: post #21
leephillips wrote: post #15

There are so many ways to interpret a correlation such as this. For example, one possible obvious mechanism is that people in the trans community may be more likely to encourage autistic people to believe that they “are transgender”. The study uncritically uses the concept “transgender and gender-diverse individuals have elevated rates of autism” without ascribing any operational meaning to “transgender and gender-di…

I've flagged this comment but I also feel the need to write a response because this kind of uncritical dog-whistle is something that actively contributes to violence against trans people. There's no evidence to suggest that trans folks encourage anybody, including autistic folks, to "believe that they're trans." However, there is myriad evidence that fear of trans folks "converting" other people is one of the motivat…

Your objections are all from imagined motivation (“dog whistle”) or from imagined consequences of my being right. These are both informal fallacies, and not legitimate forms of argumentation. Unless you believe that the current unprecedented epidemic of adolescent girls deciding that they are trans has an organic origin, somebody is convincing them of this. My objections to the study are logical objections. Since the only definition of a “trans” person is somebody who says that he is trans, research such as this can be looked at as being essentially circular.

EDIT (additions): Just for the record, I condemn any violence, or unkindness, toward trans people or anyone else. But those who are paying attention to the debates in this sphere will recognize this tactic: any questioning of currently fashionable “gender” ideas is met with the accusation that one’s speech will cause violence against trans people.

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