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The Fourth of July

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Re: The Fourth of July

#21

Post by revnode »

baybal2 wrote: post #19
myrandomcomment wrote: post #2

As a father, a husband, a former soldier and an American, this brings a tear to my eye. “We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.” - Lincoln As an American I feel we are bound not by our failures of past moral…

Americans! People cannot "transcend" past wrongs, so don't do them. The ones correcting historical wrongs, and undoing mess ups of previous generations don't do that for the "good" memory of people who did them.

> People cannot "transcend" past wrongs, so don't do them.

Semantics? I don't care what word you use, but you can absolutely always do better and the beautiful thing about America's founding is that in every respect, it is aspirational and we have aspired to do better. And we have. And we can do better still.

Re: The Fourth of July

#22

Post by sandmansandine »

tingletech wrote: post #5

Up until March, my office was less than a block from the Paramount theater in downtown Oakland. Once a month there would be a huge naturalization ceremony there as I was walking in to the office. That always did make me feel proud to be "an American", seeing all the newly naturalized people and their families crowding the area.

I used to walk by the Paramount on the way to BART and always felt happy and excited for the people waiting to get into the theater for the ceremony.

Re: The Fourth of July

#23

Post by zeckalpha »

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #13
myrandomcomment wrote: post #2

As a father, a husband, a former soldier and an American, this brings a tear to my eye. “We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.” - Lincoln As an American I feel we are bound not by our failures of past moral…

Seeing a statue of Lincoln defaced made me more sad than almost any of the other. If we can’t look to people like Lincoln as our heroes, then what type of hero do we really want?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862#Execution

Re: The Fourth of July

#25

Post by endgame »

toby wrote: post #12
tingletech wrote: post #5

Up until March, my office was less than a block from the Paramount theater in downtown Oakland. Once a month there would be a huge naturalization ceremony there as I was walking in to the office. That always did make me feel proud to be "an American", seeing all the newly naturalized people and their families crowding the area.

That's where I was naturalized! I had mixed feelings about being required to go to a ceremony even though all my paperwork was done, but in the end it was really special. On the way home I went to the Betabrand factory (which was on Cesar Chavez), told them that I had just gotten naturalized and that I wanted to buy some of their Stars and Stripes pants. They thought it was so cute that they created a special discoun…

Some things are too important to be mere paperwork, and need a ritual to mark them. Graduating university is where this range begins, and taking on the citizenship of another nation is definitely way above that.

Re: The Fourth of July

#26

Post by toby »

endgame wrote: post #25
toby wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's where I was naturalized! I had mixed feelings about being required to go to a ceremony even though all my paperwork was done, but in the end it was really special. On the way home I went to the Betabrand factory (which was on Cesar Chavez), told them that I had just gotten naturalized and that I wanted to buy some of their Stars and Stripes pants. They thought it was so cute that they created a special discoun…

Some things are too important to be mere paperwork, and need a ritual to mark them. Graduating university is where this range begins, and taking on the citizenship of another nation is definitely way above that.

Having done it I completely agree with you. There were a lot of frustrating hurdles over many years, but this was so much more than that and I'm really happy for the final ritual.

Re: The Fourth of July

#27

Post by function_seven »

skybrian wrote: post #15
mahaganapati wrote: post #7

Unfortunately still we have Guam, Puerto Rico and others that have given so much but remain as not quite citizens

They are fully citizens, but where they live isn't a state.

Those born in American Samoa fit parent's comment. They're US nationals, but not citizens.

Only a few months ago, a district judge ruled that they should be citizens, but stayed his own order pending appeal. [0]

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/13/us/american-samoa-us-citi...

Re: The Fourth of July

#28

Post by jessaustin »

A bit sentimental, but on holidays we can accept that. The bigger problem with this historical account is that it is incomplete. We Americans like to pretend that this story begins with WWII, when the evil Empire of Japan invaded those bucolic isles of the Philippines, whose brave residents were inspired by MacArthur to rise up against colonialism. In reality, this history began in 1898. Americans pretended to ally with the Filipinos against the Spanish, when in reality they only wanted to replace the Spanish as colonial overlords. In the ensuing conflicts and decades of exploitation, hundreds of thousands died.

There was no reason for any of this. America at the turn of the century had no interests in the western Pacific Ocean. American intelligentsia agreed with Mark Twain that the barbarity shamed all of us. Sure, some American sugar companies made some money, and the particular Filipinos favored by American imperialists made some money. I feel an awful precedent was set. Previously our worst barbarities had been limited to the South and the Frontier. At a stroke, they were unleashed on the World. (Seen any news stories about Libya recently?) The event described in TFA seems a small consolation.

Re: The Fourth of July

#29

Post by burlesona »

function_seven wrote: post #27
skybrian wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are fully citizens, but where they live isn't a state.

Those born in American Samoa fit parent's comment. They're US nationals, but not citizens. Only a few months ago, a district judge ruled that they should be citizens, but stayed his own order pending appeal. [0] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/13/us/american-samoa-us-citi...

This is interesting:

> The government of American Samoa has opposed automatic citizenship for its residents, arguing it would threaten the territory’s traditional cultural and religious practices.

I’m surprised the local government would prefer “non-citizen national” status.

Re: The Fourth of July

#30

Post by zdragnar »

burlesona wrote: post #29
function_seven wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those born in American Samoa fit parent's comment. They're US nationals, but not citizens. Only a few months ago, a district judge ruled that they should be citizens, but stayed his own order pending appeal. [0] [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/13/us/american-samoa-us-citi...

This is interesting: > The government of American Samoa has opposed automatic citizenship for its residents, arguing it would threaten the territory’s traditional cultural and religious practices. I’m surprised the local government would prefer “non-citizen national” status.

There are reasons that places like American Samoa and Puerto Rico would not want to become full states- losing a certain degree of autonomy among them (of course, not all who live there feel this way).

Automatic full citizenship might be seen as a stepping stone down a slippery slope towards statehood, at least by those who prefer their current status.

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