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Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

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Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#21

Post by TheDong »

raister wrote: post #20

I will probably get downvoted a lot, and this is more or less pertinent to this, so here's a rant: I am quite sick to make software work these days: someone coded something using Python3.6 and numpy1.18.5 then three years pass. Now, it's Python3.8.9 and the software is incompatible with it, so now I have to download Python3.6.5 (not Python 3.6.1) e try to make things work. But then TLS/SSL was discontinued and I'm ge…

Have I got some nixpkgs to sell you then :)

Really though, with the nix package manager (https://nixos.org/), if anyone at any point in time had a working nix package for a given program, and as long as all the inputs (source code) are still either online or cached somewhere with the same sha256, it's possible to get the exact same output.

This works with very few exceptions. Some things, like systemd dbus calls, runtime calls to an internet api that might have changed, other runtime impure things, will of course be exceptions. But in general, there aren't other exceptions. It doesn't matter if your computer has python3.9 installed, nix doesn't mind using python3.6.5 for one old package.

So yeah, nix solves exactly the problem you're complaining about. I agree something's broken in other distros, but nix fixes it.

Note, others will say containers solve this, and that's also sorta true. If someone had a docker image laying around with exactly that version of software installed and working, and you can still download said image, you'll get a working setup that way. But actually rebuilding the container (unless it's built with nix) is unlikely to be as nicely reproducible, and it misses some nice properties as a result.

Also, I can see why you might get downvoted since this isn't really that relevant to the post. It's not just free software that suffers from the problem of shipping and packaging software being a space full of unreproducibility and incompatibility

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#22

Post by md5person »

What's wrong with having to pay for software? Or learning to accept that some software is proprietary? Or even with learning to use the right tool for the job, even if that "right tool" may sometimes come at a cost?

Students are required to pay for their education at MIT. Were the costs of this course offset with the costs of the non-free software used in an otherwise "standard course"?

People put immense effort into developing software. Is asking for compensation for one's time and effort somehow wrong?

And in many cases, proprietary/commercial software really does outperform the equivalent FOSS/Libre solution. Why are we teaching people to reach out for the suboptimal tools in these situations?

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#23

Post by chottocharaii »

md5person wrote: post #22

What's wrong with having to pay for software? Or learning to accept that some software is proprietary? Or even with learning to use the right tool for the job, even if that "right tool" may sometimes come at a cost? Students are required to pay for their education at MIT. Were the costs of this course offset with the costs of the non-free software used in an otherwise "standard course"? People put immense effort into…

No one objects to people being paid to make software.

What if people were paid through public grants, or paid well through the welfare state; instead of through the legal scarcity provided by intellectual property?

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#24

Post by logane »

md5person wrote: post #22

What's wrong with having to pay for software? Or learning to accept that some software is proprietary? Or even with learning to use the right tool for the job, even if that "right tool" may sometimes come at a cost? Students are required to pay for their education at MIT. Were the costs of this course offset with the costs of the non-free software used in an otherwise "standard course"? People put immense effort into…

Sussman means free as in freedom, not free as in beer :) (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software)

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#25

Post by eesmith »

redwall_hp wrote: post #19
gcatalfamo wrote: post #4

While commendable, I don’t think this approach is useful. I also had a professor that only wanted to use FOSS for its students but the reality is that university should prepare - at least to a certain degree - for work. The radicalization of this approach leads to students that land their first job without knowing how enterprise commercial software work lacking therefore a very useful entry level skill.

Universities do not exist so businesses can outsource job training. Academia is an end in itself, not a means to an end. It's about teaching different ways of thinking, and performing research. Vocational schools exist if you want to be spoonfed how to do something cut-and-dry.

"Pre-med" is explicitly outsourced job training. It's in the name.

My university had a College of Nursing - again, job training for nurses.

Oh, and a College of Education which includes training teachers.

Don't be a snob. A 4-year college is only one of many good ways to get an education and an explicit career-path isn't just a "cut-and-dry" education.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#26

Post by p4bl0 »

That is nice and all but I fail to see how it is particular: the situation described here is also what me and most of my colleagues did during this period (except we used instances of these software hosted by our own university). I believe it is the same in most universities.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#27

Post by speedgoose »

andi999 wrote: post #2

I am a fan of open software, and also a realist. I think what he did is great. My only concern is that the source code in the book is gpl licensed (and not MIT or better public domain). This means for the student taking the class he technically is not allowed to use anything later in his work life (except of course he works for an open source company, which only a few do, bigger exception if the company uses the soft…

Once Richard Stallman gave me a GPLv3 sticker. I have been contaminated and I can only write GPLv3 since.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#28

Post by heromal »

redwall_hp wrote: post #19
gcatalfamo wrote: post #4

While commendable, I don’t think this approach is useful. I also had a professor that only wanted to use FOSS for its students but the reality is that university should prepare - at least to a certain degree - for work. The radicalization of this approach leads to students that land their first job without knowing how enterprise commercial software work lacking therefore a very useful entry level skill.

Universities do not exist so businesses can outsource job training. Academia is an end in itself, not a means to an end. It's about teaching different ways of thinking, and performing research. Vocational schools exist if you want to be spoonfed how to do something cut-and-dry.

>Academia is an end in itself, not a means to an end.

Sorry my overly idealistic friend, but as long as every job posting "prefers" (i.e. requires) a BS CS, it's fine to see the pursuit of that BS as a means to an end.

Re: Teaching my MIT classes with only free/libre software

#29

Post by bransonf »

noobermin wrote: post #15

It honestly would be great for some competition, FOSS or not in the distance learning department. Blackboard and friends are horrendous, and as we know zoom has myriad problems. For a small group meeting I have each week that is now online, I've started using jitsi too.

Blackboard has some really shady IP practices as well. In 2006 they got a patent essentially for LMS (learning management systems) in general and immediately sued a competitor.

Not only that, I’ve discovered some minor exploits in my time using it. For what it is, it’s horrible software and none of my professors were ever happy to use it.

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