It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software • Hacker News Board

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#21

Post by prepend » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:53 PM UTC

yeahthat wrote: post #7

deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

It turns out that if the opinion in question is “maybe pedophilia is ok” I am OK with the speaker being shut down and/or banished.

It depends a lot on the context. I wouldn’t want to work on a project with a pedophile. But if someone was having a conversation about early Islam and trying to understand the cultures of that time, etc then that’s an example where your statement wouldn’t be ban worthy. I just don’t think there’s a clear set of bad things that can’t be said.

Programmers I know are frequently doing thought exercises so even something like “what if murder were legal” would need to be taken in the context of the conversation to even understand what the author was advocating.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#22

Post by cycloptic » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:55 PM UTC

The salient point is that free software is a movement consisting of many individuals with their own viewpoints. If you want to support free software without endorsing the behavior of this man then donate your time, money, attention, to a different free software organization. There are a lot of them [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_and_open-source_s...

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#23

Post by rubbingalcohol » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:56 PM UTC

mjg59 wrote: post #20

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #9

> Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes. This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built, the builders are expendable. They're "problematic." We're facing down a new form of puritanism that is a greater threat to civil rights than the "problematic" individuals they seek to destroy. No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no mode…

The issue isn't one problematic statement. It's a history of behaviour that's documented to have driven multiple people away from the free software community and an absolute unwillingness on his part to do anything about it. If your movement's leadership acts in a way that hurts the movement, what's the appropriate response? Everything short of pushing RMS out has been tried already.

People who run away from something when their feelings get hurt are no great loss to whatever "movement" they're too weak to contribute to. Free Software has much bigger problems than these losers.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#24

Post by Ensorceled » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:56 PM UTC

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #9

> Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes. This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built, the builders are expendable. They're "problematic." We're facing down a new form of puritanism that is a greater threat to civil rights than the "problematic" individuals they seek to destroy. No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no mode…

You say, "No defense for RMS' statement" and yet here you are.

RMS is using his position as a free software spokesman and leader to minimize sex trafficking and defend rapists and you are talking about "cancel culture".

This is a horrific response to this article.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#25

Post by mjg59 » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #15

pjc50 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. The problem is that not getting those people to stop doing that - or, if necessary, excluding them - causes them to exclude other people.

I don’t buy that. Or at least I don’t buy that more are being excluded by RMS remaining vs banishment. I think it’s easier to be inclusive by people’s preference to join rather than to try to guess about unknown groups that may be be comfortable enough to participate but since we don’t know them we can’t query them. I don’t think RMS is scaring off good developers. I also don’t understand what kind of developer would…

People have literally talked about how they left the field because of RMS's behaviour. This isn't a case where we're randomly guessing that he discourages participation, we know he does.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#26

Post by interfixus » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #17

interfixus wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are the people thus excluded by RMS?

People who aren’t comfortable associating with someone who defends child rape.

Which - to the best of my knowledge - Stallman has never defended.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#27

Post by Jonnax » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

codr7 wrote: post #18

Jonnax wrote: post #4

Oh. I didn't realise Stallman's rigid stance to freedom of software also extended to having sex with children and victims of sex trafficking. It's amazing how much hanging out in the tech world you don't hear anything about this. Of course, just like he argues that a perpetrators is the real victim. I'm sure I'll read some article about how admirable Stallman's views are.

I thought this much would be obvious by now, but here we go. The people who traffic and rape children are mainly found among the filthy rich so called elite. If you want to do something about that, punching RMS won't help. The thing about RMS is that he prefers to use his own brain and is not afraid to stand up for his views, which is an increasingly rare phenomenon. So rare that its nearly considered a crime these d…

So he uses his own brain to advocate for the "elite" and that's somehow admirable.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#28

Post by codr7 » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

Jonnax wrote: post #14

deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

Why can't you have a reasonable discussion? Stallman emailed a big mailing list for a computer science department the following about a child sex trafficking victim: "The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem…Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it). ... We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as en…

To imagine a scenario, sure. I can imagine plenty of scenarios.

Epstein liked to film his visitors and use the material to blackmail them. Knowing that, it's not unreasonable to assume that he ordered his slaves to behave nice and inviting.

You should be very careful about drawing lines between what you can and can't think. Once you do that, it doesn't really matter if you call it Religion or Science; you're still hosed.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#29

Post by krapp » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #19

krapp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up it's criteria for existing as a virtuous person. What more proportionate response would you suggest? So far, the only alternative responses I've seen offered are that Stallman is either correct or the true vi…

How about call him an asshole, let him learn from his mistake (or not) and move on?

So basically, just put up with it and do nothing consequential?

RMS isn't some random asshole who made a slightly off-color remark, he's a leader whose influence and cult of personality have shaped the culture around F/OSS development and programming for decades, who appears to have troubling issues around the concept of sex and consent with minors. He's also a man known for his intransigence, so the chances of him "learning his lesson" seem low.

To say that he doesn't deserve to be inconvenienced by the social consequences of opinions that would ostracize anyone else isn't proportionate, it's elitist.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#30

Post by mjg59 » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #23

mjg59 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue isn't one problematic statement. It's a history of behaviour that's documented to have driven multiple people away from the free software community and an absolute unwillingness on his part to do anything about it. If your movement's leadership acts in a way that hurts the movement, what's the appropriate response? Everything short of pushing RMS out has been tried already.

People who run away from something when their feelings get hurt are no great loss to whatever "movement" they're too weak to contribute to. Free Software has much bigger problems than these losers.

I personally know high quality developers who refuse to work on free software projects because of Stallman. It's not a matter of weakness, it's a matter of principle.