Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

mjg59.dreamwidth.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 128 posts

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#11

Post by [deleted] »

yeahthat wrote: post #7
deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

It turns out that if the opinion in question is “maybe pedophilia is ok” I am OK with the speaker being shut down and/or banished.

[deleted]

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#12

Post by interfixus »

pjc50 wrote: post #6
deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

> Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. The problem is that not getting those people to stop doing that - or, if necessary, excluding them - causes them to exclude other people.

Who are the people thus excluded by RMS?

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#13

Post by tom_mellior »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

> Every topic is a hot potato.

Yeah, you can't even condone raping children anymore. What has the world come to?

More seriously, the point is that this topic is not enough of a hot potato if RMS is comfortable talking about it in public.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#14

Post by Jonnax »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

Why can't you have a reasonable discussion?

Stallman emailed a big mailing list for a computer science department the following about a child sex trafficking victim:

"The reference reports the claim that Minsky had sex with one of Epstein’s harem…Let’s presume that was true (I see no reason to disbelieve it). ...

We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing."

Is this acceptable to you?

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#15

Post by prepend »

pjc50 wrote: post #6
deanclatworthy wrote: post #5

I grow more and more tired of these discussions. Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. Conferences are getting shut down, people are having their world turned upside down for being ignorant. Every topic is a hot potato. I feel i can’t even have a reasonable conversation about diversity, ignorance, or whatever the controversy of the day is. It’s easier to just be quiet than express opinions…

> Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. The problem is that not getting those people to stop doing that - or, if necessary, excluding them - causes them to exclude other people.

I don’t buy that. Or at least I don’t buy that more are being excluded by RMS remaining vs banishment.

I think it’s easier to be inclusive by people’s preference to join rather than to try to guess about unknown groups that may be be comfortable enough to participate but since we don’t know them we can’t query them.

I don’t think RMS is scaring off good developers. I also don’t understand what kind of developer would be put off by his statements so much they would not collaborate on a project.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#16

Post by krapp »

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #9

> Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes. This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built, the builders are expendable. They're "problematic." We're facing down a new form of puritanism that is a greater threat to civil rights than the "problematic" individuals they seek to destroy. No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no mode…

>No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up it's criteria for existing as a virtuous person.

What more proportionate response would you suggest?

So far, the only alternative responses I've seen offered are that Stallman is either correct or the true victim, and we should sympathize with him, respect him and let him be.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#17

Post by mikeash »

interfixus wrote: post #12
pjc50 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Talks of banishing people because they’re ignorant, rude, sexist. The problem is that not getting those people to stop doing that - or, if necessary, excluding them - causes them to exclude other people.

Who are the people thus excluded by RMS?

People who aren’t comfortable associating with someone who defends child rape.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#18

Post by codr7 »

Jonnax wrote: post #4

Oh. I didn't realise Stallman's rigid stance to freedom of software also extended to having sex with children and victims of sex trafficking. It's amazing how much hanging out in the tech world you don't hear anything about this. Of course, just like he argues that a perpetrators is the real victim. I'm sure I'll read some article about how admirable Stallman's views are.

I thought this much would be obvious by now, but here we go. The people who traffic and rape children are mainly found among the filthy rich so called elite. If you want to do something about that, punching RMS won't help.

The thing about RMS is that he prefers to use his own brain and is not afraid to stand up for his views, which is an increasingly rare phenomenon. So rare that its nearly considered a crime these days.

The perpetrator is a victim, there's no doubt about that. Psychopaths aren't born, they are created through trauma in a society that doesn't give a crap about humans.

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#19

Post by rubbingalcohol »

krapp wrote: post #16
rubbingalcohol wrote: post #9

> Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes. This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built, the builders are expendable. They're "problematic." We're facing down a new form of puritanism that is a greater threat to civil rights than the "problematic" individuals they seek to destroy. No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no mode…

>No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no moderation whatsoever in regards to a proportionate response (eg. he's either "clean" or "unclean"), then no one else is safe as the mob ratchets up it's criteria for existing as a virtuous person. What more proportionate response would you suggest? So far, the only alternative responses I've seen offered are that Stallman is either correct or the true vi…

How about call him an asshole, let him learn from his mistake (or not) and move on?

Re: It's time to talk about post-RMS Free Software

#20

Post by mjg59 »

rubbingalcohol wrote: post #9

> Remove everyone, if we must, and let something much better be built from the ashes. This is cancel culture taken to the extreme. Now that everything is built, the builders are expendable. They're "problematic." We're facing down a new form of puritanism that is a greater threat to civil rights than the "problematic" individuals they seek to destroy. No defense for RMS' statement, it's absurd, but if there's no mode…

The issue isn't one problematic statement. It's a history of behaviour that's documented to have driven multiple people away from the free software community and an absolute unwillingness on his part to do anything about it. If your movement's leadership acts in a way that hurts the movement, what's the appropriate response? Everything short of pushing RMS out has been tried already.
Post reply on HN