Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

powerseductionandwar.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 34 posts

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#21

Post by patrickgzill »

bhoung wrote: post #3

Really enjoyed the article. I've skimmed Greene's book and thought it was just a modernisation of Machiavelli's "The Prince". This article really shows how passionate he is about understanding and accepting human nature. Because Greene's book is prescriptive in that it lists 48 laws, I had thought there wasn't that much depth to it. I'm pleasantly surprised by Greene's insight.

When I looked through the "48 laws" I found a lot of Talmudic references (though maybe that is because the person who recommended it to me mentioned that); I don't recall that being in the translation of "The Prince" that I read..

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#22

Post by JanezStupar »

lhnz wrote: post #19
JanezStupar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed - I find it fascinating how people nowadays are short on integrity. But they forget that ultimate deceiver is a person who does not deceive. I'm quite sad how everything is so short term nowadays.

I'm confused as to what you mean. Why do you think that it's just nowadays that people are short on integrity or that everything has become short-term?

Like you I also suspect that people haven't been any different in the past.

But there are two key points I'd like out:

1. I have only seen nowadays, 2. I have met (maybe most?) really smart, able and ambitious people who tend to get little but important details wrong. They view power struggle as zero sum game. They fail to see that to make it you need not only look after your own best interest but of those people around you also. That top is not a singular point, but it is an area of larger structure - a pyramid if you will. And to get to the top of a pyramid you need a strong fundament and if you want to stay at the top you absolutely must hone and take care of your wider base.

Nowadays it's way easier to check the validity of your strategy. It is easier to check historical references for similar contexts as ones own. And these smart people just decide that they will replay the history. And this is the ultimate risk in my opinion - repeating same thing over and over (definition of insanity by Einstein I believe?) and expecting different results. While believing that alternative strategies that are counterintuitive at first are too risky.

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#23

Post by JanezStupar »

lhnz wrote: post #20
JanezStupar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own the three bestsellers (48 laws, 33 strategies, art of seduction). Calling it modernization of The Prince is wrong (I also own The Prince AND Discourses on Livy) - it is more a condensate of the works of people he refers to and cites: Niccolo Machiavelli, Sun Tzu, Baltasar Gracian, Otto Von Bismarck, Carl Von Clausevitz, Napoleon, Platon, Aristoteles, Friedrich Nietzche... All the great classics - as such Greene…

Is it a mistake that I'm reading Prince before Discourse on Livy? What should I know...

No mistake. A mistake would be to only read The Prince.

The key point I have taken from the Prince - notice how Niccolo keeps bringing about examples of successful tyrants? Have you noticed that none of this tyrants has died of old age?

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#24

Post by [deleted] »

epo wrote: post #15
yters wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of deceptive bugs and other critters. Like stick insects, frog fish, chameleons, etc.

Camouflage to avoid being eaten isn't quite the same thing. It is the difference between gaining an advantage as distinct from avoiding a disadvantage.

[deleted]

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#25

Post by sabalaba »

After having worked in the 'real world' for the past couple of months (back in school to finish up my degree now), I can only agree that this is the unfortunate reality of the world. However, I wish that Greene didn't choose such a left-hand path interpretation of influence.

A word and concept, that only showed up once in the entire article, empathy, seems to be a much more reasonable way to deal with the social politics that we all face.

"I make the point that you are not going to get far unless you are the kind of person that knows how to think inside the other person's mind."

The difference between that and empathy, the difference between the left-hand and right-hand path to power and influence, seems to be how genuine the intent is. Thinking inside the other person's mind is one thing, but putting yourself in their shoes, understanding and validating their feelings has a completely different intention. One is to manipulate, the other, to understand.

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#26

Post by BobbyH »

jdp23 wrote: post #2

Robert's profiling Paul Graham (along with a dozen or so other people) in his next book.

Robert gave Andrew Warner of Mixergy some more details about his interview of pg in a 12/30/09 interview: http://mixergy.com/robert-greene-power-interview/

You can click through to read more, but the highlight for me was: "So, Paul Graham, what I liked about him was he’s always been a complete non-conformist and has gotten away with it, not because his parents had money or he was privileged, but because he didn’t care and he took risks and he just followed what he wanted to do. And that’s sort of the end of this book. That’s like the ultimate thing."

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#27

Post by BrandonM »

timb wrote: post #7

"The other thing that primates have that is so bizarre and interesting is that they are the only animal we know that practice deception and games of manipulation among each other. There is no other animal on the planet that we can say that about." Some male cuttlefish will pretend to be female in order to sneak past the alpha male and mate with the female he is guarding. I am sure there are many, many other examples…

This seems like a different kind of deception, the kind that one could stumble upon by random chance. Evolution could be responsible for a specific trait leading male cuttlefish to be inclined to pretend to be female. The way to test that would be to determine if the cuttlefish is deceptive in other, completely unrelated ways.

Primates, on the other hand, can use manipulation in a broad range of circumstances, in a way that is indicative of a higher level of thinking.

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#28

Post by Psyonic »

ryanholiday wrote: post #8
Psyonic wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any hint on the topic?

He briefly mentions the next book in the speech (quoted below) and I'm sure more will come, but the concept of mastery which is a theme in all Robert's books is the common thread between the people he interviewed In the book that I'm writing now, I can talk about it later, if you'd like, I'm interviewing eight of the most eminent people in the world today in different fields -- In neuroscience, in architecture, in mu…

Thanks Ryan. By the way, I'm happy to see you're on HN. I'm a fan of your writing.

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#29

Post by bioh42_2 »

bhoung wrote: post #3

Really enjoyed the article. I've skimmed Greene's book and thought it was just a modernisation of Machiavelli's "The Prince". This article really shows how passionate he is about understanding and accepting human nature. Because Greene's book is prescriptive in that it lists 48 laws, I had thought there wasn't that much depth to it. I'm pleasantly surprised by Greene's insight.

This article really shows how passionate he is about understanding and accepting human nature.

OK I must be weird! I am a software engineer (I know you are shocked, SHOCKED that there's are hackers/engineers/programmers on HN!) and I am an introvert and a bit of a misanthrope.

But all of this Machiavellian/Human nature/How to make friends and influence people stuff just seems SO obvious to me! Yes, even the real deep parts of it!

I distinctly recall first confronting it on the school yard, like grade 1, basically as soon as I interacted with anyone who wasn't my parents.

And I remember the second big point of confusion at puberty, but by my mid teens ALL of this was just so old and so obvious. And I've done it and decided not to do any more then necessary because it can be intellectually and emotionally draining.

And I'm happy to trudge along as a well paid big co. software engineer while thinking about what kind of startup I might create some day.

But then there all these people, and not the typical aspie folks, or people who were home schooled (pardon my stereotype strawmen), no like happy social folks and to them this explicitly written down stuff is like this huge revelation! But you're all already doing it!? Are you that oblivious of what you're doing on auto-pilot?

Am I just weird? Do I just think I know more then I actually do? Or are there A LOT of people who are consciously oblivious to what they are subconsciously masters of?

I man Robert Greene had to really think why his boss might have something against him? Really? I mean really! You can find his bos' behavior in fairy tales, complete with background for why it's happening! Who's the prettiest in all the land, anyone?

Re: The "Machiavellian Reality" -- speech by Robert Greene

#30

Post by mhb »

epo wrote: post #15
yters wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of deceptive bugs and other critters. Like stick insects, frog fish, chameleons, etc.

Camouflage to avoid being eaten isn't quite the same thing. It is the difference between gaining an advantage as distinct from avoiding a disadvantage.

Pitcher plant
Post reply on HN