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Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

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Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#21

Post by ineedasername »

Rainymood wrote: post #5
sake wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distractions are not really my problem, it's mental exhaustion. If anything I think I should probably have more breaks, when I'm at work I just work. I see majority of people procrastinating, reading news, social media or socializing with coworkers to take their mind off work from time to time. If you can work 8 hours straight with only a lunch break, I don't think you are doing very mentally intensive work.

I have studied and kept detailed logs of my work for years. When I reach 4-5 hours of "real" work (i.e. deep work) I am mentally exhausted and I consider it a good day. No one expects you to be 8 hours straight in the zone, no one does. And if you can do so, the more power to you, but be careful not to burn yourself out. 3-5 hours of deep work - that's it

Sure, with meetings etc not all 8 hours is going to be deep work, but there's usually more in a workday than that. Meetings, mentoring, etc... But my impression of what the OP is saying isn't really looking at it that way, and is saying 8 hours is too large of a block for work in general, not just deep work.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#22

Post by BurningFrog »

Coding shouldn't require extreme focus.

If it does, it's probably because your code base is an unstructured mess that can't be worked on without superhuman effort.

Many programmers have never spent time in a well factored code base and don't know how to write one, so this might just sound strange to them.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#23

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

BurningFrog wrote: post #22

Coding shouldn't require extreme focus. If it does, it's probably because your code base is an unstructured mess that can't be worked on without superhuman effort. Many programmers have never spent time in a well factored code base and don't know how to write one, so this might just sound strange to them.

If you're implementing something new, or a new interface, or basically anything interesting, it's going to require focus. I don't know how you can add anything of real value without a high level of focus.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#24

Post by SkyPuncher »

cm2012 wrote: post #13

I did a poll of HN a while back and the average HNer spends about 6 hours a day doing work of any sort (including meetings, etc.) Only 25% did more than 8 hours a day, and 25% did 4 or less. Seniority had no effect on time spent working.

I had a contract gig over the past two years that pretty much equalled out to 6 hours/day.

I'm pretty sure I was within 10% of my full-time productivity. If I wasn't being productive, I simply went and did something else for a bit.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#25

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #18
cm2012 wrote: post #13

I did a poll of HN a while back and the average HNer spends about 6 hours a day doing work of any sort (including meetings, etc.) Only 25% did more than 8 hours a day, and 25% did 4 or less. Seniority had no effect on time spent working.

The problem is, if you're an employer and you went to a 6 hour workday: 1) you lose out on the people that can and do work 8 hours. 2) the people that only work a percentage of the 8 hours are only going to work a percentage of the 6 hours, and you'll lose out there as well. Sure, you might say, we should just work less hours and hire more people. With 3.7% unemployment, that's easier said than done.

You could argue moving to more workable hours with that line of thinking then.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#27

Post by techslave »

guitarbill wrote: post #12
0xd171 wrote: post #4

You're expected to be at work for ~8 hours, not to problem solve for that long. (Hopefully, if you're at a half-decent company). You have email and chat to manage, stand-ups, other meetings and calls, coffee breaks, lunch. Most people can set up their day in a way that they can be productive without feeling like they need to be constantly 100% concentrated.

Some people prefer working intensely, some people don't. So why demand 8h of presence from everybody as long as the work gets done? From my experience, policies of being in the office for hours significantly reduces productivity, as people spend more time trying to fill their days instead of doing the work. Regardless, it's patronising to effectively treat highly paid professionals like children with dumb, simplistic…

no one works in a vacuum. people need to communicate and collaborate, even when the work is prescriptive. core hours requirements stem from making sure that there are times when everyone can have rich, immediate interactions. not from childish supervision.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#28

Post by danny_taco »

I often leave early or come late to work and my employer doesn't care as long as I get the work done. As long as I'm there for meetings where I have to be there, everything is good. Perhaps you should talk with your employer about their expectations from you so you don't feel like you have to be there for 8 hours from M-F.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#29

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

There's a funny/weird dynamic with this. We all need to appear like we work as much as everyone else appears to. Looks like your teammate puts in 9 hours per day? Well you do too. Otherwise you'll look like a slacker, even though both of you get five or six hours of work done. If everyone did it, it'd be fine and you'd both get hours of time back to do anything else.

What's weird is that this dynamic affects workplaces too. If you are in an org that actually lets people work great flexible hours you won't advertise it too much, for fear of attracting workers whose primary goal is to slack, or getting a reputation an org of slackers. And if you're a job hunter who cares about this, you can't really dig in to asking about the hours everyone is expected to work for fear of being perceived as a slacker.

Nobody can be open about it (orgs or teammates or applicants) and thus the problem persists.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#30

Post by hirundo »

Think of it like a quarterback actively playing for only 20 minutes per game. The rest of the time, planning, recovering, warming up, is also part of the job. You can't average 8 hours per day encoding and decoding, but you can spend the rest of it bulldozing distractions, learning, and otherwise optimizing your flow states.
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