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Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#21

Post by stordoff »

devoply wrote: post #15
DanBC wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true in the UK. Police can use reasonable grounds to search and they don't need a dog to alert to give them those reasonable grounds. The dogs, if used, in the UK probably are sniffing actual drugs. Here's some legal information: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/law-and-courts/le...

It looks like it's true. > You can also be searched if the police have reasonable grounds to suspect you have: > illegal drugs Use a dog. Pretend it's reasonable grounds. > In all situations, you can’t be searched just because of how you look or who you are, as this is discrimination. Yes it is and that's how you use a dog to discriminate and maintain the legal fiction.

There are only about 2,000 police dogs in the UK (1,900[1] / 2,500[2]) (vs. _about_ 50,000 in the US [3] - about five times more per capita). It seems unlikely they are being used for routine traffic stops.

Furthermore, reasonable grounds is a low bar. From the code of conduct in the linked document (Scots law, but the whole UK is similar)[4]:

> Reasonable suspicion may also exist without specific information or intelligence and on the basis of the behaviour of a person. For example, if a constable encounters someone on the street who is obviously trying to hide something, the constable may (depending on the other surrounding circumstances) base such suspicion on the fact that this kind of behaviour is often linked to stolen or prohibited articles being carried

A police dog is frankly overkill for establishing reasonable grounds.

[1] https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2016-11-14/debates/D85...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_dog#United_Kingdom

[3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/20/the-s...

[4] https://www2.gov.scot/Resource/0051/00512924.pdf

Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#22

Post by stordoff »

lozenge wrote: post #13
mintone wrote: post #2

The article suggests that the detectors will detect 2G, 3G and 4G usage, but will recognise if a bluetooth hands-free kit is in use. This sounds like complete snake oil to me, please could someone explain if this is possible?

It would probably fall foul of hacking laws even if technically possible (which it isn't). They just don't want to say it is a camera based system for fear of... vandalism? An image classifier with a human check doling out fixed penalties would be more effective than this. So would a warning system on phones that shamed drivers. Neither are within the resources of the police to develop (as nearly all police in the UK…

> It would probably fall foul of hacking laws even if technically possible (which it isn't)

Probably not - Computer Misuse Act, s.10:

> Sections 1 to 3A have effect without prejudice to the operation—

> (a)in England and Wales of any enactment relating to powers of inspection, search or seizure or of any other enactment by virtue of which the conduct in question is authorised or required

Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#23

Post by esotericn »

For context, across the UK we have similar systems for speed limits.

They are not used for enforcement or prosecution. They are informational boards. Actual speed cameras are different (usually a yellow or blue box that doesn't give any feedback).

It's basically a sort of 'big brother is watching' reminder.

Some of them show your actual speed on a big LED board, leading to individuals attempting to get a "high score".

It sounds from the article like this would be the same. A board that flashes a mobile phone if you might be using one.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a complete waste of time (because I know these boards are meaningless), but the other side of the coin is that a decent number of people actually are afraid of enforcement action due to the signs and slow down.

Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#24

Post by justinjlynn »

tinus_hn wrote: post #16
justinjlynn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be amazed if this were reliable enough to survive legal challenge. Personally, it sounds too much like the old "TV detector vans". I'm skeptical.

If you read the article, it says it gives warnings, not fines. It can’t tell if a phone is used by the driver or a passenger anyway.

Well, that settles that then. Just another distracting flashing sign for the driver to deal with.

Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#25

Post by ehnto »

kurtisc wrote: post #20
ehnto wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the failure mode is fatal, it's not that unreasonable to expect people to turn off their phones in their cars in my opinion. If you are driving, you can't respond anyway, so just wait until you get to your destination to reconnect. Phone use is now killing more people than drunk driving so I don't feel like it's an over-reaction. Drivers had their chance to be responsible and they killed a bunch of people…

Phones have legitimate uses in cars. Satnav, music, or even just an indication that you just pull over and answer a phone. Given that I've never used one illegally, I think it's fair for me not to want to go through a power cycle for every journey. How could Uber work without one?

The utility for devices in a car is obvious, no one is arguing that they aren't useful. But that's just a shame, because using them kills people every day and we haven't found a way to police it yet. Power cycling may just be a caveat of the policing methods.

Driving is a privilege that is constantly abused. Perhaps we just couldn't handle unfettered use of devices in cars the same way we couldn't handle drinking and driving?

I am all for some kind of controlled way of safe phone use in cars, but it doesn't exist. Better to remove the temptation until it does.

Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#27

Post by Freak_NL »

esotericn wrote: post #23

For context, across the UK we have similar systems for speed limits. They are not used for enforcement or prosecution. They are informational boards. Actual speed cameras are different (usually a yellow or blue box that doesn't give any feedback). It's basically a sort of 'big brother is watching' reminder. Some of them show your actual speed on a big LED board, leading to individuals attempting to get a "high score"…

It's not fear of enforcement that motivates people to act on these signs, it is the moral reminder that their behaviour is not socially acceptable (not to mention illegal). For a large group of people this works. Speeding (and being a smombie behind the wheel) is something people often do unintentionally, or with a rationalization mindset of 'everybody does it' (or something along those lines). For both these cases a reminder without further consequences can guide them to better behaviour.

For the rest who just make their own rules enforcement remains necessary of course, but it helps if you can get a good number of people to cooperate intrinsically.

Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#28

Post by agotterer »

stephen_g wrote: post #5

This seems like a silly idea - as the article says, there's no way for it to tell whether it's the driver or a passenger, but even if there's only one person in the car, there's no way to tell if the person is actively using a mobile phone or if it's just sitting in the car and there's some app running on it that happens to be transmitting data... Then add in the likelihood that it'll pick up all sorts of random inte…

There’s so many legitimate reasons for the phone to be on and transmitting in a moving car. Wouldn’t it just be cheaper and likely as effective to have a sign reminding everyone to not use their phone while driving?

Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#29

Post by ed_balls »

m0nty wrote: post #12
stephen_g wrote: post #5

This seems like a silly idea - as the article says, there's no way for it to tell whether it's the driver or a passenger, but even if there's only one person in the car, there's no way to tell if the person is actively using a mobile phone or if it's just sitting in the car and there's some app running on it that happens to be transmitting data... Then add in the likelihood that it'll pick up all sorts of random inte…

I don't think it's silly, more of an extended field test which might cause some people to put their phones away. Everyone involved is probably thinking it's of marginal benefit at the moment, but the field-test data can be used to develop the tech. Seems perfectly reasonable. The alternative would be to go "big bang" on a half-baked technology which would repeatedly fail to secure convictions. That would be silly.

The deaths in the accident could be avoided if the vehicle had an emergency brake assist.

I doubt it's possible to develop a tech that would prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was distracted by the phone.

Re: Police detectors to warn mobile phone-using drivers

#30

Post by esotericn »

Freak_NL wrote: post #27
esotericn wrote: post #23

For context, across the UK we have similar systems for speed limits. They are not used for enforcement or prosecution. They are informational boards. Actual speed cameras are different (usually a yellow or blue box that doesn't give any feedback). It's basically a sort of 'big brother is watching' reminder. Some of them show your actual speed on a big LED board, leading to individuals attempting to get a "high score"…

It's not fear of enforcement that motivates people to act on these signs, it is the moral reminder that their behaviour is not socially acceptable (not to mention illegal). For a large group of people this works. Speeding (and being a smombie behind the wheel) is something people often do unintentionally, or with a rationalization mindset of 'everybody does it' (or something along those lines). For both these cases a…

I suppose it depends a lot on your local area.

Where I live there are tons of these 'flashy speed limit' signs.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone obey them. 35-40mph in the new London '20 zones' is completely normal behaviour if the road permits; everyone does indeed do it, including buses and off-duty police/ambulances.

It is, in fact, empirically socially acceptable (by the drivers if not necessarily by people who live there).

In areas with speed bumps you see much lower speeds because people don't want to damage their vehicles. Enforcement, basically. The same is true for real speed cameras, people tend to speed up and slow down.

That said, mobile phone use is different. I think most people intuitively recognise that using a phone at the wheel, particularly in an urban area, is really quite dangerous, and maybe a sign would work.

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