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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

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21–30 of 388 posts

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#21
post #11

There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. I'm going to repeat this again, since many people struggle with this. It is _literally impossible_ to achieve the best utilitarian outcome, the most procedurally fair outcome, and a representatively fair outcome. Anyone designing algorithms will have to make tradeoffs along this frontier. For a far better ar…

I was interested in the slide deck and wanted to hear the author expand on some of his thoughts, found a video of his presentation if anyone else is interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn7oWIhFffs

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#22
post #7

Of course ML algorithms can be biased; rather than engaging an Internet layperson who tried to contradict AOC with a silly argument, it would be more interesting if the article engaged the more salient counterpoint to claims like these--attempts to eliminate bias can introduce bias as well. Anyway, the article is not written in good faith; it's only a step above "BOOM AOC owns Internet conservatives!". There's an int…

The article has an appropriate amount of technical and political discussion. The words “she is right” are simply not in this community’s vocabulary.

What sort of critique are you trying to make of "this community?" Are the words "he is right" in our vocabulary?

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#23
I'm trying not to biased, but can't stop to notice sometimes math seems to be biased when you don't like the result:

Saavedra had repeatedly complained about supposed bias in social media algorithms, including tweeting that “tech companies tend to be liberal & something is off with their algorithms because they won’t show a lot of content I find by manual search.”

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#24
Machine learning, as well as human learning, largely work off of correlations observed in the source data. In some cases, the data itself is a flawed source for the learning it's being used for, because human biases have already influenced the dataset. An example is arrest records, which is the result of discretionary decisions made by officers whether or not to pursue an arrest.

But in other cases, the source data is less in question, but the results of the learning are nonetheless undesirable. We ought to be able to distinguish, in our professions and our political lives, between the two scenarios. It's counterproductive to conflate the two to strive for a goal, because we risk using mechanisms that never discover and won't correct the true origin factors.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#25

A fun example... click this and scroll all the way down: https://www.faception.com/our-technology I need to start collecting a list to turn this into a proper Thing but I feel like whenever there's a way to use technology for evil there's a Tel Aviv startup that cranks it to 11.

Seems highly unlikely to ever work, but why assume the technology is evil? If you could create a system that had a high accuracy of detecting terrorists, then that would be a good system, not an evil one.

I get your point that a system that claims to detect terrorists but only really detected Arabic people would be an evil one - but you're automatically calling the terrorist system evil without knowing if it really does detect terrorists or not.

As an extra hypothetical question, do you feel a system that could detect people who were really just about to commit terrorist attacks as good or evil? At a conceptual level, assume the system somehow scanned brain waves or some other truly difficult method.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#26
Ok. Lets assume this is true. (Note: I'm biased in that I accept this as true)

So, as someone who has possibly implemented racist/sexist/ageist algorithms, how do I:

     1. Detect if I'm running a said algorithm (whats the % racism/sexism/ageism I can do before bad?)
     2. Run an open dataset to detect said problems
     3. Prevent overfit with the proposed dataset from #2
     4. Correct said algorithm to reduce bias
What's my way forward here? How do I do my part and take part in the solution? What percent of unintended racisms/sexism/ageism is allowed before being considered illegal?

(worried this article will be flagged, but the nuts and bolts implementation discussion needs done.. and we're the implementers )

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#27
post #17
post #11

There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. I'm going to repeat this again, since many people struggle with this. It is _literally impossible_ to achieve the best utilitarian outcome, the most procedurally fair outcome, and a representatively fair outcome. Anyone designing algorithms will have to make tradeoffs along this frontier. For a far better ar…

But it is possible to make one that is representatively fair first and foremost, with procedurally fair and utilitarianism at 2nd and 3rd priorities.

Yes, it is. But if you're designing an algorithm that assesses credit risk and you do this, you will lose money compared to a company that does not do this.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#28
The second half of the article that talks about Yudkowsky, rationalists, and Roko's Basilisk is absolute trash and a gross mischaracterization of the actual positions taken.

>Yudkowski has for more than a decade pursued the possibility of perfect human reasoning

His website is literally called "Less Wrong". It's fundamentally a quest for improvement, not perfection.

>His system of coldly logical reason, it turned out, was by many accounts completely undone by a logical paradox known as Roko’s Basilisk.

Roko's Basilisk is a thought experiment designed to import your "don't negotiate with terrorists" intuitions into a really weird corner of decision theory. It's possibly why prior decision theories held were rejected as flawed, but it's not a current issue with their logic. Roko's Basilisk has, unfortunately, gotten way more coverage and fame than it deserves in terms of actual importance. This is because of the regretful (but understandable) decision to censor discussion of it on Less Wrong, which backfired spectacularly.

>For super-nerd bonus points, it’s also arguably a spin on Godel’s incompleteness theorem, which argues that no purely rational algorithmic system can completely and consistently model reality, or prove its own rationality.

That's not at all what Godel's incompleteness theorem argues. That's much more narrowly about formal logic.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#29
Disparities in racial outcomes do not necessarily constitute racism.

The author flippantly violates this by claiming the credit system to be racist, but the Equal Credit Opportunity Act has been in force since 1974.

We know the factors that affect credit, some of them are income, payment history, loan balances, number of credit checks, etc.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#30
post #11

There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. I'm going to repeat this again, since many people struggle with this. It is _literally impossible_ to achieve the best utilitarian outcome, the most procedurally fair outcome, and a representatively fair outcome. Anyone designing algorithms will have to make tradeoffs along this frontier. For a far better ar…

The problem here is, we don't even know what "fair" means. What do we mean by fair? Say we want to base fair on group outcomes, in which ways should we divide people into groups in order to perform some sort of balancing? Is hair color or texture a relevant way of subdividing people for instance? Are we being "fair" to red haired people? What if red haired people for some reason seem to be less likely to pay back loans? Will we need to adjust our credit rating model to bump the credit scores of red haired people slightly? Will we need to agonize over other features fed to our model to ensure that they can't be used as a proxy for red hair?

Maybe???? But it seems very dishonest.

I think, if anything, the models are probably too true for our tastes as social creatures who evolved to avoid social conflict (being 100% honest with your unruly neighbors can lead to a loss of harmony that is much more damaging than just putting up with some disturbances). Our idea of "unbiasing" the models is more likely actually making them biased in a way that pleases our monkey brains.

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