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How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

nytimes.com

21–30 of 222 posts

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#21
post #10

Um the people in the confederate States were super neighborly and friendly. Not sure this is the cure-all recipe for avoiding antagonism between factions, or sections as they used to be called.

I am not sure what this has to do with loneliness. And I am not sure why you feel the need to emphasize "Confederate States" when it has a name: Southern Courtesy. Having growing up in the region and both given and received Southern Courtesy, it's more about community building and less about breaking out of loneliness. When a bunch of Yankees moved into town during my childhood, they also were quite friendly but just…

The conclusion from the article was: Each of us can be happier, and America will start to heal, when we become the kind neighbors and generous friends we wish we had.

My point is that the neighbourliness of the southern states in no way healed the sectional rift. Ie the author didn't backtest his theory against history.

So either the authors conclusion doesn't follow from his premise or the conclusion is unrelated to the rest of the article (which I did read), or the last paragraph is not a conclusion or the whole article is just nonsense?

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#22
post #13

> When people have a hole in their life, they often fill it with angry politics. Mass psychosis - solution to loneliness.

That's bull, political anger is being caused by ever growing income and wealth disparity – only an oblivious moron or someone who is happy with the status quo would be blind to that. edit: to all those flagging and downvoting: my comment wasn't at @nabla9 it was directed at the assumptions in the NY Times article. It's very convenient for writers at the so-called newspaper of record to ignore the huge transfer in wea…

Not a great formula for discussion.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#23
post #7
post #3

It's easy to point out that this is caused by 'the internet' or 'modern technology' replacing the need for human interaction. We feel less alone but are more selective about our friends, live in smaller echo chambers. In meatspace there's this thing where you want people to like you if you meet them, possibly enforced by the fact that someone might punch you if you rile them up. On the internet we select our own grou…

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment: Is there any hard data that proves that people are becoming increasingly tribal? Perhaps the number of radicals is the same like it was 20 years ago, but the internet and social media now give those radicals a voice. Because of this it feels like we are becoming increasingly tribal, when in reality we're not. Similar to how the crime rates are going down, but most folks thin…

The number of radicals might be the same, but the internet gives these existing radicals a much easier way to establish communities than before. As far as I know it's an accepted fact within social psychology that groupthink causes radicals to become more radical, which could suggest that even if the number of radicals is the same, these same radicals might become more extreme.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#24
post #9

There is a good reason why people are escaping small towns. If you are even a little bit outside of the mold, such as being into reading instead of cars as a guy, you will be ostracized by a huge part of the community. And may God have mercy on you if you are into the really weird stuff, such as liking programming, tinkering with electronics or anime.

I do not believe people are leaving small towns because they can't watch anime or whatever.

They're leaving small towns because small towns are not the place to look for education and work.

Idk what constitutes small in your book. I grew up in towns of around 10k to 23k people. Had no trouble being a nerd, playing video games, reading, watching anime, coding.

Now I'm in a city an order of magnitude larger, and more lonely than I've ever been before.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#25
post #3

It's easy to point out that this is caused by 'the internet' or 'modern technology' replacing the need for human interaction. We feel less alone but are more selective about our friends, live in smaller echo chambers. In meatspace there's this thing where you want people to like you if you meet them, possibly enforced by the fact that someone might punch you if you rile them up. On the internet we select our own grou…

In meat space, where are the places to meet? Where are the weekly town celebrations, or the courtyard everyone retires to? Everything is locked up by money.

Starbucks is not locked up by money. On my recent trip to the US, I encountered quite a few (homeless) people in there who came to charge their phones and they got ice water for free.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#26
I blame this on the built environment of the US. Nothing is human scale or people oriented. It's commerce and cost oriented. Very few independent shops in most cities. No concept of a high street or village of shops, no public square, nothing.

I'm referring to the post WW2 America. Obviously, you'll find these things in the old core of New England and parts of the South.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#27
I didn't read through the full article but I want to comment anyway. I think the problem is much more complex than simply "gig economy". In all likelihood it is a combination of multiple issues that compound on one another. Gig economy certainly plays a part in that compounding effect that causes isolation and loneliness but it is certainly not the only factor. Take a look at an average family today: you have a father and mother who both work jobs, stay late, outsource their parental duties, all just to keep up with the lifestyle they created or the bare minimum to survive. The kids are on their phones, ipads and whatnot and the adults are setting the example at the dinner table (what.. wait, nope there is no dinner table anymore as everyone just eats whenever, and if they do, they are on their devices). The growing isolation at home fosters a behavior that leads to ever more isolated existence in outside relationships. With the media constantly being pumped into our brains, we must have the latest and greatest gadgetry for what? To consume more media and become even lonelier.

The growing class divide, carefully curated media channels and a widening gap in haves vs have nots encourages an us vs them attitude. Combine that with a social media existence that allows you to select which highly tuned group you want to belong to and you've got yourself an information / viewpoint silo that breeds hate.

Then you have an ever-growing selection of consumer products that aims at creating a finely attuned solution to every need but in fact creates a sense of bewilderment and unhappiness.

Of course not all is terrible, as (some) businesses compete, you get better and better products / services (not always) that set a high bar for expectations. When the next burger, 4k TV or haircut is unsatisfactory, the feeling is compounded as we now have so much to compare to. How can anyone be pleasantly surprised when the bar to compare to is perfection?

Take our family again, the kids are going to college and accrue a ton of debt and are left to pay for it after graduation. No problems, unemployment rates are low, just go find a great paying tech job right? Well, now every entry job requires 2 years experience and nobody wants to hire college graduates. Take another dose of depression here and add it to your collective loneliness profile.

Then we have the corporate behemoths that stifle competition and create massive enterprises which control your life. Want to switch internet service? Forget it. No alternatives. Want to complain about a service you don't like? Good luck with that, you'll be connected to India and I'm sure they will put your suggestion in a corporate suggestion box... In some aspects we have too much choice and in others not enough. This of course leads to stress, frustration, anger, and despair - all of which feeds into the pool of depression. If yours isn't full, someone else's is getting there, and once it fills up it starts spilling out.

It doesn't stop there. US in particular is great at fostering a culture where we must blame everything on ourselves. Didn't get a good product? Your fault! You chose it. Didn't get the right president? Your fault! You voted for him. Didn't reach your personal goals after listening to that life coach / feel good guru podcast? Your fault! Don't you know, you're in charge of your own destiny! Forget asking for help, that's for the weak. Oh, but when you do, make sure to see a mental health professional since privacy is important (just don't complain when they share their information with insurance providers who will decide which therapy you should undergo).

Consumption, consumption, consumption. Take advantage of everyone to make an extra buck. Screw over your co-worker for that promotion. Outsource that job to an overseas contract worker - who cares about your fellow neighbor. Speaking of neighbors, why are they making so much noise? Well, don't bother talking to them because you know you won't. How dare you knock on their door and say hello, that's just weird! Nobody does that.

And people wonder why they are lonely...

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#28
post #17

Suburbs are structurally lonely (your own castle with as little reliance on others as possible), and only ‘work’ when paired with other sources of community. Those sources are disappearing for a variety of reasons but the transfer from physical -> digital, communal [1] -> personalized, eating out -> eating in [2], public space -> private space, friend time —> media time all add up. We also don’t have strong culture a…

> Suburbs are structurally lonely

My European perspective. I wouldn't blame it on suburbs in particular. I would blame most if not all forms of city living. Most people live in flats where nobody wants to have anything to do with their neighbor and there is no communality. People move in and move out, nobody cares. The less you have to hear of your neighbor, the better. FWIW I would rather have a 'burb castle than a flat where I have to smell and listen to idiots drink, smoke, fight and blast music. And I think I'd rather get to know the neighbors over at the adjoining castle than the scum in these neighboring flats.

Now farms and other isolated & rural towns are a different deal. There you're no longer mass of people. You actually get to know the community around you, and people don't come & go nearly as much.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#29
post #17

Suburbs are structurally lonely (your own castle with as little reliance on others as possible), and only ‘work’ when paired with other sources of community. Those sources are disappearing for a variety of reasons but the transfer from physical -> digital, communal [1] -> personalized, eating out -> eating in [2], public space -> private space, friend time —> media time all add up. We also don’t have strong culture a…

I lived on a kibbutz after college. It has its own set of problems. The closer you live to people, the more politics enters the picture. The less money there is to go around, the more that politics revolves around the relatively financially trivial. You can't force people to like each other just because they live in close proximity.

The problem isn't finding people with shared interests and values, it's in building real-world (not Internet-based) communities around them.

Re: How Loneliness Is Tearing America Apart

#30
post #3

It's easy to point out that this is caused by 'the internet' or 'modern technology' replacing the need for human interaction. We feel less alone but are more selective about our friends, live in smaller echo chambers. In meatspace there's this thing where you want people to like you if you meet them, possibly enforced by the fact that someone might punch you if you rile them up. On the internet we select our own grou…

In meat space, where are the places to meet? Where are the weekly town celebrations, or the courtyard everyone retires to? Everything is locked up by money.

Indeed. Also where are the times and opportunities to meet? Cities have become poorly walkable aka very hostile to pedestrian. The only encouraged social interaction is with shop/cafe' employees - and they are not allowed to have any meaningful conversation with customers.
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