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Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

abc.net.au

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Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#21

Post by _mog1 »

cirgue wrote: post #18
sho wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, it's not "genocide" at all - that's typical hyperbole from a very politically motivated party. His next quote reveals his definition of genocide: > “They want to erase, erase, erase your identity and our culture and to melt them into Han Chinese.” That's quite different, and also accurate. They want them to learn Chinese and acknowledge they live in China. Of course. Interesting that you suggested the Yugosl…

Genocide is the systematic dismantling of an ethnic identity. It doesn’t definitionally include killing.

That's a rather liberal definition of the word. From brittanica, "Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race."

I don't think "dismantling of an ethnic identity" at all fits into "deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people" unless you weaken "destruction" to mean almost nothing.

From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide), "it has been applied to the Holocaust, and many other mass killings including the genocide of indigenous peoples in the Americas, the Armenian Genocide, the Greek genocide, the Assyrian genocide, the Serbian genocide, the Holodomor, the Indonesian genocide,[6] the Guatemalan genocide, the 1971 Bangladesh genocide, the Cambodian genocide, and after 1980 the Bosnian genocide, the Kurdish genocide, the Darfur genocide, and the Rwandan genocide." All of those examples are actual killings of people, not this new age definition of changing people's opinions about things.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#22

Post by CPLX »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #15
sho wrote: post #11

It's hard to defend China here but it's also hard to see how they are supposed to handle the Uyghur question, and articles like this certainly don't give useful suggestions. What do you do with a region full of separatist agitators who frequently resort to violence and refuse to even teach their children Mandarin? Leave them to it and tolerate the bombings? Allow them to secede? There's a long history here and after…

> Allow them to secede? Is that a serious question? If a people no longer wants to be part of a country they should be allowed to secede. The Scottish tried it via a democratic route - which would have succeeded with a wide margin post-Brexit. Actually, the British voted to secede from the EU. The Catalans want to secede from Spain. But that's besides the point - you're almost implying that it's OK to put people in c…

> Is that a serious question? If a people no longer wants to be part of a country they should be allowed to secede.

While I am not defending China whatsoever in this specific case it’s worth noting that premise is highly debatable — essentially the definition of a serious question.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#23

Post by adventured »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16
singularity2001 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1944 they were called 'work camps'. re-education does sound a bit more friendly so there is progress in propaganda.

And ATM in the US they're called detention camps for enemy combatants.

There are 40 enemy combatants held at Guantanamo. They have public legal representation and visitation rights.

China has removed all human rights for over ten million Uyghur Muslims. Including freedom of movement, freedom of religion, tight restrictions on behavior, tracking of all communication and movement, restrictions on who you can meet or talk to, tracking of all Urghar family members in China or abroad, non-existent freedoms around speech and expression, total lockdown on press investigation or discussion, forced re-education.

And then for at least a million Uyghur Muslims, they're outright physically and mentally torturing them in camps through forced programs to destroy their culture and beliefs.

Please enlighten me as to how that compares to what the US is currently doing with Guantanamo. I believe the detainment facility at Guantanamo should not exist and should have never existed. There's an important on-going debate there. There's no reasonable comparison to be had between Guantanamo and Xinjiang, whether in scale, intent, or context.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#24

Post by xyzal »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #16
singularity2001 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 1944 they were called 'work camps'. re-education does sound a bit more friendly so there is progress in propaganda.

And ATM in the US they're called detention camps for enemy combatants.

At least in the US, if you ever leave, you get to keep both your kidneys.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#25

Post by dalbasal »

sho wrote: post #11

It's hard to defend China here but it's also hard to see how they are supposed to handle the Uyghur question, and articles like this certainly don't give useful suggestions. What do you do with a region full of separatist agitators who frequently resort to violence and refuse to even teach their children Mandarin? Leave them to it and tolerate the bombings? Allow them to secede? There's a long history here and after…

What if you reversed this question, and asked it from the Uyghar perspective.

What do you think the solution to the china/ccp problem is? What do you do when you're ruled by a country that hates your language and religion, actively tries to extinguish your culture and frequently resorts to violence in order achieve this goal?

Should they leave them to it? Allow them to imprison millions of your people and end your culture?

I'd genuinely like to know what people think the alternative is to near-fascist rule?

In conflict, it's always easiest to ask your questions in a way that leaves no alternative but bloodshed, a way that justifies anything.

The way to peace is asking different questions.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#26

Post by toxik »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #15
sho wrote: post #11

It's hard to defend China here but it's also hard to see how they are supposed to handle the Uyghur question, and articles like this certainly don't give useful suggestions. What do you do with a region full of separatist agitators who frequently resort to violence and refuse to even teach their children Mandarin? Leave them to it and tolerate the bombings? Allow them to secede? There's a long history here and after…

> Allow them to secede? Is that a serious question? If a people no longer wants to be part of a country they should be allowed to secede. The Scottish tried it via a democratic route - which would have succeeded with a wide margin post-Brexit. Actually, the British voted to secede from the EU. The Catalans want to secede from Spain. But that's besides the point - you're almost implying that it's OK to put people in c…

The EU is not a nation state

Scotland has a very unique history in this

Catalunya is not gaining independence and the central Madrid government has declared their referendum illegitimate and illegal.

People cannot vote their way to secession, even in democracies.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#27

Post by baybal2 »

sho wrote: post #11

It's hard to defend China here but it's also hard to see how they are supposed to handle the Uyghur question, and articles like this certainly don't give useful suggestions. What do you do with a region full of separatist agitators who frequently resort to violence and refuse to even teach their children Mandarin? Leave them to it and tolerate the bombings? Allow them to secede? There's a long history here and after…

Do you think of this as a genuine concern? Yes, in nineties some militants managed to effectively take control of the South Xinjiang with Kashgar and mop the floor with PLA for a few months. PLA can only blame itself for letting itself fail so spectacularly.

Few bombings a year? That is not enough to normally set off reaction of a district police office, let alone on a nation level. Chinese oligarchs are waging wars on streets of Chinese cities against each others with private armies, blowing each others up every day, and the party does nothing about that.

Where I'm leading here?: the real reason for the recent crackdown.

Today, the party is being ran by a generation of people with no nerve or temper what so ever. Them pressing the, "big red button," is the only response to any issue their level of emotional and intellectual finesse avails them.

Xi himself is said to be a man with very weak personality "ready to pull out a gun" on the most minor suspicion of anybody having personal animosity with him. I want to say that for the readers to not to base your opinion of him on the popular sentiment. The popular opinion in the West have no idea who he really is, just like as with the rest of political establishment here.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#28

Post by pjc50 »

toxik wrote: post #26
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allow them to secede? Is that a serious question? If a people no longer wants to be part of a country they should be allowed to secede. The Scottish tried it via a democratic route - which would have succeeded with a wide margin post-Brexit. Actually, the British voted to secede from the EU. The Catalans want to secede from Spain. But that's besides the point - you're almost implying that it's OK to put people in c…

The EU is not a nation state Scotland has a very unique history in this Catalunya is not gaining independence and the central Madrid government has declared their referendum illegitimate and illegal. People cannot vote their way to secession, even in democracies.

Secession has pretty much always had to be fought for (US, Ireland), but peaceful (Czechslovakia) and semi-peaceful (India) secession is possible.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#29

Post by boomboomsubban »

It's strange to see this thread full of outrage over China's acts and demanding they give the Uyghur their sovereignty when Xinjiang borders Afghanistan. Nothing they are doing is worse than the seventeen years that the US has held sovereignty of Afghanistan, resulting in hundreds of thousands of dead.

Re: Satellite images expose China's network of secret re-education camps in Xinjiang

#30

Post by boomboomsubban »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #3

And will we abandon China's next Davos in the X conference as fast as we did Saudi?

We didn't care that the Saudis were killing dissidents in their own country and slaughtering civilians in Yemen for years. It wasn't until they killed a US resident that anyone gave a single shit, there won't be any objection to China's acts.
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