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The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

bbc.com

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Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#21

Post by skhro87 »

Sureai wrote: post #6

I am right now in Singapore for a visit and personally I don't have the feeling of a very clean city. There are some things that drive me crazy as a european. I went to a hawker with some Singaporeans and we got new disposable chopsticks for every dish. Wich means I ended up with three pairs of chopsticks. All plates were disposable. Either of plastic or styrofoam. Like in the article we didn't clean our trays, a cle…

While I agree there is a lot of plastic used for disposable plastic bags, it is not common to get disposable chopsticks in hawker centers, unless you ask for takeout, which often costs 20-50c extra. Usually all plates/cutlery in hawker centers are reusable plastic. While Singapore cannot be compared to Europe in terms of "save-the-environment" attitude, there recently has been improvement (e.g. some supermarkets started to give discount if you bring your own bag; government incentives to educate people to use reusable plastic etc).

Also, you say Singapore doesn't feel like a very clean city to you, but you don't have any examples. Certainly Singapore is very clean compared to any European/German city of the same size, or anywhere else in SEA.

I'm also German, living in Singapore for 6+ years.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#22

Post by kirvyteo »

Sureai wrote: post #6

I am right now in Singapore for a visit and personally I don't have the feeling of a very clean city. There are some things that drive me crazy as a european. I went to a hawker with some Singaporeans and we got new disposable chopsticks for every dish. Wich means I ended up with three pairs of chopsticks. All plates were disposable. Either of plastic or styrofoam. Like in the article we didn't clean our trays, a cle…

It is definitely a "cleaned" city. The level of cleanliness has gone now and litter has increased. Public awareness of this has gone down. If you know Singapore, there has always been a history of govt-led campaigns.

15 years ago, it wasn't like that. People bring their own tupperware to do take aways. All the cutlery were washed and cleaned. This meant more time and energy from the hawkers. In the name of efficiency, low cost, disposable plastic/styrofoam/chopsticks is a convenient solution, unfortunately.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#23

Post by echevil »

jplayer01 wrote: post #7
maxxxxx wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I have heard from people living there most people seem OK with it.

But...but freedom. It's aggravating to see how many Americans think individual freedom should absolutely and automatically trump every other concern.

I lived in Singapore for six years and then San Francisco for almost six years now, but seriously, I don’t feel US is any more “free” in any tangible ways. Maybe there are more “freedom” defined by laws in US but certainly not something that normal people will miss in daily lives. Also over focusing on “individual” freedom apparently won’t always align with the interest of the entire society and could eventually bring down the average happiness of individuals.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#24

Post by zandl »

Sureai wrote: post #6

I am right now in Singapore for a visit and personally I don't have the feeling of a very clean city. There are some things that drive me crazy as a european. I went to a hawker with some Singaporeans and we got new disposable chopsticks for every dish. Wich means I ended up with three pairs of chopsticks. All plates were disposable. Either of plastic or styrofoam. Like in the article we didn't clean our trays, a cle…

You should visit other countries in the area and then you can see the difference in Singapore, it’s a pretty remarkable and unexpected achievement.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#25

Post by Sureai »

mediumdeviation wrote: post #16
Sureai wrote: post #6

I am right now in Singapore for a visit and personally I don't have the feeling of a very clean city. There are some things that drive me crazy as a european. I went to a hawker with some Singaporeans and we got new disposable chopsticks for every dish. Wich means I ended up with three pairs of chopsticks. All plates were disposable. Either of plastic or styrofoam. Like in the article we didn't clean our trays, a cle…

Regarding disposable plates and utensils, I actually don't see much of them unless you ask for takeout. I suspect in the area you're in the cost of dish washing is more expensive than the cost of plates and refuse collection. A tax on disposables would be great. Singapore is actually getting better on reducing disposables, though slower than I would like. Cashiers don't double bag items anymore, and try to pack as mu…

I had one metallic straw in a fancy cocktail bar. The rest were plastic. Not to say, that I get a plastic cup full of ice with a plastic straw when I order a green tea, which comes in a can and is already ice cold. For the litter I see the most: part of plastic bags and Dasani water bottles. I hope the change in trash management, recycling and maybe trash separation does not only start with the rich people here, but with everyone.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#26

Post by testcross »

> The country has long had an obsession with hygiene and cleanliness.

An obsession with shiny appearances. Hygiene and cleanliness? What a joke. So many meat shops don't store meat in a cold and clean place. Plenty of hawkers are far from clean.

> There are 56,000 cleaners registered with the National Environment Agency. There are likely thousands of independent contractors who aren’t registered. Mostly they’re low-paid foreign workers or elderly workers.

This says everything. It's easier to keep the city "clean" when you have slaves.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#27

Post by echevil »

maxxxxx wrote: post #2

Singapore is an interesting case study how a well-run government that restricts a lot of freedoms can work remarkably well. I wonder if this model is sustainable long term.

My guess is that it will be more sustainable than government that restrict much less freedoms - people carry guns, have drugs, piss on the streets, destroy public properties and do all kinds of creepy things and government can’t really do much about it. How is that more sustainable

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#28

Post by brownbat »

jplayer01 wrote: post #7
maxxxxx wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I have heard from people living there most people seem OK with it.

But...but freedom. It's aggravating to see how many Americans think individual freedom should absolutely and automatically trump every other concern.

One can raise an eyebrow at a clean city that uses corporal punishment for visa overstays and the death penalty for drug offenses without being a radical libertarian.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#29

Post by SllX »

raincom wrote: post #4

The area of Singapore is 278 sq miles, approximately the size of 17 miles square. Whatever policies that work in such small high density places won't work in larger countries. However, one can try to decentralize as much as possible; such decentralization may not work in large countries either.

This gets overlooked.

In San Francisco, if I count the number of jurisdictions I fall and pay taxes under, I get a number like 7, the typical City/State/Federal tier (minus the County tier as SF is unique in CA for consolidating that into the City tier), and at least 4 special districts that are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Singapore is 1 City 1 Nation. I’m not an expert on precisely how they govern themselves, but it must really help cut through administrative overhead and bureaucracy when the national government is effectively also the local government, responsible for police, fire, the environment, the parks and playgrounds, utilities regulation and national defense.

So if they want to set aside a line item for city cleanup right beneath national security and the public healthcare system, they have the option without debating further past public/private for whose responsibility it is. The government can take the tact that it is either its responsibility or it isn’t, without the complex tax system imposed by several different entities that the US has getting in the way. No federal grants to grant, no support legal challenges in 50+ court systems and various appellate court districts to overcome, no multi-tiered incentive structures, just, “do we have the budget?”

There are certainly more advantages to be had for larger countries, but there are also certain quality of life advantages to not having to be a large country, as long as you are rich anyway.

Re: The cost of keeping Singapore squeaky clean

#30

Post by dang »

ronilan wrote: post #3

What you should wonder is if this model is desirable in any term.

Generic ideological tangents are off topic on HN. You can't get much more generic (or ideological) than freedom-good-or-bad.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18333236.

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