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Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

nytimes.com

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Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#21

Post by curious_fella2 »

ekianjo wrote: post #15
throwaway333444 wrote: post #10

> Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in. So if your race matches their preference they improve your odds of admittance. Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference. IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty.

> IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty. I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria. Of course, it's not a binary thing: universities in the US receive lots of subsidies from local states, so there is a certain expectation of fairness. Maybe the right thing to do would be to c…

"I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria"

How is this argument different than supporting a private restaurant not serving e.g. Chinese people since they "are a private company that should be able to serve whom they want based on their own criteria?"

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#22

Post by dnautics »

ekianjo wrote: post #15
throwaway333444 wrote: post #10

> Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in. So if your race matches their preference they improve your odds of admittance. Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference. IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty.

> IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty. I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria. Of course, it's not a binary thing: universities in the US receive lots of subsidies from local states, so there is a certain expectation of fairness. Maybe the right thing to do would be to c…

Although I'd support this, cutting subsidies is going to be incredibly painful. A lot of University income is tied up as overhead on top of research grants.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#23

Post by blazespin »

throwaway333444 wrote: post #10

> Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in. So if your race matches their preference they improve your odds of admittance. Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference. IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty.

Affirmative action has been a big issue, but I don't think it makes you guilty.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#24

Post by dnautics »

curious_fella2 wrote: post #21
ekianjo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty. I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria. Of course, it's not a binary thing: universities in the US receive lots of subsidies from local states, so there is a certain expectation of fairness. Maybe the right thing to do would be to c…

"I don't like what they seem to be doing, but Harvard is a private university - they should be able to recruit who they want to based on their own criteria" How is this argument different than supporting a private restaurant not serving e.g. Chinese people since they "are a private company that should be able to serve whom they want based on their own criteria?"

It's not. And as a person of color, I'll tell you that laws preventing discrimination offered me and my family zero protections (specifically with respect to restaurants) in the post CRA-III era.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#25

Post by corndoge »

throwaway333444 wrote: post #10

> Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in. So if your race matches their preference they improve your odds of admittance. Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference. IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_Unit...

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#26

Post by analog31 »

bilbo0s wrote: post #20
lazyant wrote: post #13

If it was up to me, for university admissions there would be a public clear and objective scoring system, based for example only on grades and then use a lottery system weighted inversely by income. No more essays and subjective values, silly extracurriculars or race involved (it's already somehow accounted for in the income).

Not sure you want that, because then you end up with something like the Iowa system. (Basically, everyone is admitted, because every school optimizes for getting the required score. It's nigh impossible to graduate high school in Iowa WITHOUT the required 245 points for the Iowa schools.) Giving an explicit formula for scoring, along with a required score, has historically been the same as letting everyone in, becaus…

Similarly in Wisconsin, and possibly any state with a flagship public university. Even if the point system isn't known, everybody gets into one of the Wisconsin system colleges. But everybody doesn't go to those colleges.

First, the number of positions is limited, though I don't know how the limit is set or if it actually fills up.

Second, the top kids at the top high schools in the state go to the Ivy's, or other selective private colleges, even if they could get into UW. This leaves positions open at UW for a wider variety of students.

There is also a third tier system, consisting of community colleges that feed into the university system or provide shorter term job training.

Disclaimer: One kid is at the flagship college, the other is in high school.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#27

Post by Spooky23 »

imranq wrote: post #17

Why should anyone care what Harvard does? Isn’t it a private university, and shouldn’t they be able to choose who they want? The whole thing strikes me as presumptuous and entitled.

Because employers love credentialism and can discriminate based on college.

Your ability to break into the highest levels of many fields depends on that Harvard degree vs a public or 2nd tier private school.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#28

Post by fromthestart »

throwaway333444 wrote: post #10

> Harvard has testified that race, when considered in admissions, can only help, not hurt, a student’s chances of getting in. So if your race matches their preference they improve your odds of admittance. Since the number of admissions is fixed this reduces the odds of those who have a race that doesn’t match their preference. IANAL but it sounds like Harvard just admitted that they were guilty.

Doublespeak

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#29

Post by blazespin »

A really great admissions primer - Sierra Burgess is a loser. You really have to stand out. Be bigger than life, grades and sat are not enough. Be a positive force but mature and mindful. If you can be super smart and this at 18, the world is your oyster.

Re: Harvard’s Admissions Process, Once Secret, Is Unveiled in Federal Court

#30

Post by [deleted] »

bilbo0s wrote: post #20
lazyant wrote: post #13

If it was up to me, for university admissions there would be a public clear and objective scoring system, based for example only on grades and then use a lottery system weighted inversely by income. No more essays and subjective values, silly extracurriculars or race involved (it's already somehow accounted for in the income).

Not sure you want that, because then you end up with something like the Iowa system. (Basically, everyone is admitted, because every school optimizes for getting the required score. It's nigh impossible to graduate high school in Iowa WITHOUT the required 245 points for the Iowa schools.) Giving an explicit formula for scoring, along with a required score, has historically been the same as letting everyone in, becaus…

[deleted]
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