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If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

eand.co

21–30 of 52 posts

Re: If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

#21

what's more, as was pointed-out on a recent episode of the EconTalk podcast, although our society as a whole is capitalist, internally almost all corporations are run as communist dictatorships

The advantage being that their problem set is smaller and more focused, and the bad decisions are generally contained in the business and don't tend to take down the entirety of society like actual communism and socialism.

Capitalism is generally great. There are places where it must be over-ruled, and there are places where many of the problems with it are due to poor attempts to regulate it.

It's been demonstrably good for human progress on the whole.

Re: If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

#22
Capitalism is not a system of ideas, nor is it a system that anyone chooses. It is not designed, voted on, decreed, or managed. It has no governing authority, no standards organization. It has no dogma, creed, commandments, or constitution.

Capitalism is the natural order of things within human societies above a certain size and complexity level. It's more like a force of nature than anything else. To establish any system other than capitalism takes great effort.

What we can do is regulate it. It might be impossible to prevent corruption entirely in government. But to criticize capitalism in its contemporary manifestation is to criticize blatant regulatory capture, corruption, and demagoguery. Those phenomena are themselves manifestations of capitalism, and it is telling that they arise in capitalist and non-capitalist societies alike.

We need to develop new and better systems for keeping people honest and for keeping institutions fair. Without this development, human nature, not the distribution of capital ownership, remains the greatest threat to humanity.

Since I've been downvoted, I might as well clarify: this article exemplifies what I'm talking about!

First the author writes:

What is [the slave owner] really after? He’s trying to earn is freedom from labour — not having to do work, hence the slaves. He’s also trying to win freedom from exploitation — he holds the whip, but is above the moral law. And from control, punishment, hierarchy — he has no boss to answer to.

That's perfectly reasonable! Note that capitalism has nothing to do with this. People have always sought this. It might as well be part of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

But then they try to summarize themselves:

"Even the capitalist is really just trying win back his freedom from capitalism"

I guess that's true in this particular case, because for this particular capitalist the cause of their non-freedom is capitalism. But is it true in general? Absolutely not! Freedom from exploitation and the desire for control are universal human desires that extend beyond any particular economic system.

Once the false equivalence is broken, the article kinda stops making sense.

Re: If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

#23

There are a lot of other good points here. People bang on capitalism because it's easy -- and trendy. One thing that most conversations miss is that capitalism isn't some optional thing you pick up and do like yoga. Wiki defines capitalism as "an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit." So what does "own" mean? How about "production" We can substitute in s…

"You start collecting coins, or stamps. Suddenly you're trading your stamps with another guy for his political support for getting a new stoplight."

If there is no ownership there is no concept of 'your collection' or trading for that matter. There are stamps on a shelf in a room in a house you currently locate yourself. As there is no concept of ownership, there is no concept of stealing. The other guy can just 'take' your stamps. As they don't belong to you.

I do agree that capitalism is not something optional. But that is because the fundamental traits of ownership are ingrained in our culture and biology as people. We evolved to where we are now because of this. We didn't decide on capitalism. It is more an explanation and reasoning about our current society. Other societal structures like ant colonies or 'primitive' humans might be different. But you don't see them because they are not part of the global economy bubble and frankly they don't see us or care about the system we use to govern ourselves. They just live.

Re: If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

#24
post #7

IMHO the premise is wrong. The capitalist isn't trying to gain freedom from capitalism, but from market.

I'd rather say that (for at least some of) the capitalists' the goal is control/dominate the market not escape it. Anyway, the whole article is full of wrong/weird premises, ie. talking to Alexa = talking to capitalism; mission to Mars = escape from the capitalism, not apotheosis of it etc.

I said escape because at least I personally understand the target to be to free myself from any influence the market has on me.

Re: If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

#25

There are a lot of other good points here. People bang on capitalism because it's easy -- and trendy. One thing that most conversations miss is that capitalism isn't some optional thing you pick up and do like yoga. Wiki defines capitalism as "an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit." So what does "own" mean? How about "production" We can substitute in s…

"You start collecting coins, or stamps. Suddenly you're trading your stamps with another guy for his political support for getting a new stoplight." If there is no ownership there is no concept of 'your collection' or trading for that matter. There are stamps on a shelf in a room in a house you currently locate yourself. As there is no concept of ownership, there is no concept of stealing. The other guy can just 'tak…

You own your opinions and decisions, right? Can those be removed from you? Your influence in the community?

You're correct on the stamps issue. I broadened the scope a bit just to drive the point home in a reasonable amount of text. If you own no physical objects, you can't accumulate or barter them.

But that doesn't mean you don't own anything. Or that scarcity goes anywhere. Or that you and other people can't pool/coordinate these non-tangible things you control to create and influence real, live, physical things. It's just easier to reason about when it's stamps. That's all. The beauty of money was that it allowed all of that pooling and coordination to happen in the abstract.

Re: If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

#26
The point of capitalism is freedom -- not from capitalism, but freedom - period.

In a capitalist society you are, in general, free to do whatever you want. If what you're doing is something that society deems sufficiently valuable then you tend to be able to make a living doing just that, even if it's something nobody would have ever thought to have made a living doing before. Imagine you hate capitalism. If enough people agree with you you're free to make a living writing and talking all about the evils of capitalism, selling your books, articles, Che t-shirts, and so on. Imagine you think communism is the best economic system. In a capitalist society you're free to buy up thousands of acres of land, invite some people onto your land, and then try to start your communist utopia.

By contrast in other economic systems, what you can or can't do tends to be decided by outside forces and the government in particular. No government is ever going to pay you to speak negatively of their system of governance. And the notion of buying thousands of acres of land to start a capitalist utopia would just be nonsensical in e.g. a communistic society. Your freedom is greatly restricted, and society is directed not by the people within that society but by an elite few -- you end up with the same problems as capitalism, but with none of the benefits. And this reality is almost certainly why all social economic systems seem to converge towards authoritarianism and failure to produce. People want to be the masters of their own destiny. Capitalism isn't perfect there, but it's certainly far better than any alternative.

Re: If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

#27

The point of capitalism is freedom -- not from capitalism, but freedom - period. In a capitalist society you are, in general, free to do whatever you want. If what you're doing is something that society deems sufficiently valuable then you tend to be able to make a living doing just that, even if it's something nobody would have ever thought to have made a living doing before. Imagine you hate capitalism. If enough p…

Please don't conflate capitalism with libertarianism. Only makes a discussion more confused.

Re: If the Point of Capitalism Is to Escape Capitalism, Then Why Capitalism?

#30

Capitalism is not a choice. Given the nature of the human mind and the material state of the world, the equilibrium state of human economies is capitalism. To see what I mean, consider any complex system. There will be certain patterns and processes that naturally unfold in that system, while other patterns and processes do not manifest without external energy. The reason is because the former states are closer to th…

Perhaps, but this might have more to do with the the public's ability to govern themselves soundly.

Marx actually had quite a bit to say about the "reproduction" of capitalism depending on the indoctrination of new generations. We have been witnessing this play out over the last 40 or so years in the USA, starting with the revival of right wing political movements.

Head on over to a hard-right corner of the Internet, and feel your jaw drop in amazement as you realize that they simply do not share the reality that you inhabit. This is the result of a successful decades long brainwashing campaign.

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